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Have all the commenters here assuming that this is a misguided attempt that'll end up letting any idiot into degree programs as long as they are labeled "divers

Have all the commenters here assuming that this is a misguided attempt that'll end up letting any idiot into degree programs as long as they are labeled "diverse" considered that maybe, possibly standardized tests aren't necessarily a good measure of one's ability to a learn well through a degree program? That maybe the ability to answer hundreds of multiple choice questions and write five-paragraph essays in several high-pressure thirty minute sprints isn't a prerequisite to success in a field? Are they not bothered by the fact that these tests are surrounded by an industry of expensive prep classes specifically meant to teach you how to take a test? This doesn't say you can't submit scores. Most still will. But it does say that performance on one specific exam doesn't have to be a deciding factor, which I see as a step forward.

ajross 7y ago
These are excellent points, but I don't think this is as much a political thing as a personal one. The highly-numerate, low-social-skills set that makes up the bulk of the posters here tends to be disproportionately successful on standardized tests. I think to a lot of us (and again, I actually agree on the policy angle here that testing is at best a flawed predictor of future success) this feels like a rejection of our own qualifications.
xyzzyz 7y ago
It is well known and universally acknowledged that SAT scores are highly predictive of educational outcomes. See eg. https://collegereadiness.collegeboard.org/educators/higher-ed/test-validity-design/validity-studies https://collegereadiness.collegeboard.org/educators/higher-e... . You can use other alternative measures to predict educational success, but it’s important to get it right, otherwise you’ll end up with low quality student body that isn’t able to learn much and will drop out at high rates. Currently, high school GPA is also good at predicting success, but it’s highly variable among schools. Should SAT testing be abolished, parents who now pay for prepping will instead put their children in schools where they are guaranteed high GPAs. With all of its flaws, standardized testing is still the best of all available alternatives for the purpose it’s used for. You need to acknowledge that no matter what approach you use, it will be gamed.Thus, if you want to ensure fairness, you need to choose one that’s hardest to game. Clearly, high school GPA, essays and volunteering is much easier to game than SAT score.
- thatfrenchguy 7y ago
  > See eg. https://collegereadiness.collegeboard.org/educators/higher-e.. https://collegereadiness.collegeboard.org/educators/higher-e.... Quoting the company that sells you those tests to tell you those tests are predictive is quite fun.
  - xyzzyz 7y ago
    Their result match everyone else’s, so I see no reason to not cite them.
    - timmytokyo 7y ago
      And apparently you see no reason to cite "everyone else's", even when that would have strengthened the persuasiveness of your argument. Hm.
      - xyzzyz 7y ago
        https://psycnet.apa.org/record/1976-08398-001 https://psycnet.apa.org/record/1976-08398-001 https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/00221546.1998.11775147?journalCode=uhej20 https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/00221546.1998.11... (this one summarizes something like 20 other studies in a nice table) https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1207/S15326977EA0801_01 https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1207/S15326977EA0801_... https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/07399863930153004 https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/073998639301530... https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/001316447903900220 https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/001316447903900... https://psycnet.apa.org/record/1968-09427-001 https://psycnet.apa.org/record/1968-09427-001 You want more? I could give you probably 50 more studies. The literature here is vast and consistent.
- fiftyfifty 7y ago
  That doesn't jive with the submitted article in the Washington Post: "Research has consistently shown that ACT and SAT scores are strongly linked to family income, mother’s education level and race. The College Board and ACT Inc., which owns the ACT, say their tests are predictive of college success, but (as with many education issues) there is also research showing otherwise." There are studies that have shown rigor of high school course work is the strongest predictor of college success: https://www.chronicle.com/article/Study-Says-Rigor-of/8973 https://www.chronicle.com/article/Study-Says-Rigor-of/8973 I think we can all agree that allowing two private companies to be the gate keepers of higher education is a terrible idea.
SamReidHughes 7y ago
If you have a data driven alternative measure for predicting student success, by all means offer one. The reality is, schools want to discriminate against whites and Asians in favor of dumber middle-class blacks and hispanics. Edit: You have to understand, these people genuinely, religiously believe that a racially diverse student body is somehow better. It's utterly naive to think their motivation is better evaluating student potential.
- iaw 7y ago
  > discriminate against whites and Asians in favor of dumber middle-class blacks and hispanics I think there's ample evidence to indicate that it's not just intelligence at play but the opportunities available to individual students that makes their relative academic success possible. It's a naive argument that the under-representation of particular classes in higher education is because they're 'dumb'
  - SamReidHughes 7y ago
    I didn’t make that argument. The argument is that those attending the institutions are dumber than the Asians and whites they’re replacing (edit: at the margin, obviously), because schools unfairly discriminate in their favor. These aren’t pygmalion geniuses from the ghetto, they’re middle-class kids with cell phones and laptops. Half of black Americans in the Ivy League are from post-civil war immigrant stock. An over-represented minority.
    - TheFullStack 7y ago
      I am an Asian who was definitely discriminated against during the college admission cycle. It really really sucked. Luckily out here in the "real world", a lot of that discrimination flips and I benefit from being an Asian in tech in many ways. I don't feel the least bit guilty about it either.

ajross 7y ago

These are excellent points, but I don't think this is as much a political thing as a personal one. The highly-numerate, low-social-skills set that makes up the bulk of the posters here tends to be disproportionately successful on standardized tests. I think to a lot of us (and again, I actually agree on the policy angle here that testing is at best a flawed predictor of future success) this feels like a rejection of our own qualifications.

xyzzyz 7y ago

It is well known and universally acknowledged that SAT scores are highly predictive of educational outcomes. See eg. https://collegereadiness.collegeboard.org/educators/higher-ed/test-validity-design/validity-studies https://collegereadiness.collegeboard.org/educators/higher-e... . You can use other alternative measures to predict educational success, but it’s important to get it right, otherwise you’ll end up with low quality student body that isn’t able to learn much and will drop out at high rates. Currently, high school GPA is also good at predicting success, but it’s highly variable among schools. Should SAT testing be abolished, parents who now pay for prepping will instead put their children in schools where they are guaranteed high GPAs. With all of its flaws, standardized testing is still the best of all available alternatives for the purpose it’s used for. You need to acknowledge that no matter what approach you use, it will be gamed.Thus, if you want to ensure fairness, you need to choose one that’s hardest to game. Clearly, high school GPA, essays and volunteering is much easier to game than SAT score.

thatfrenchguy 7y ago
> See eg. https://collegereadiness.collegeboard.org/educators/higher-e.. https://collegereadiness.collegeboard.org/educators/higher-e.... Quoting the company that sells you those tests to tell you those tests are predictive is quite fun.
- xyzzyz 7y ago
  Their result match everyone else’s, so I see no reason to not cite them.
  - timmytokyo 7y ago
    And apparently you see no reason to cite "everyone else's", even when that would have strengthened the persuasiveness of your argument. Hm.
    - xyzzyz 7y ago
      https://psycnet.apa.org/record/1976-08398-001 https://psycnet.apa.org/record/1976-08398-001 https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/00221546.1998.11775147?journalCode=uhej20 https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/00221546.1998.11... (this one summarizes something like 20 other studies in a nice table) https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1207/S15326977EA0801_01 https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1207/S15326977EA0801_... https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/07399863930153004 https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/073998639301530... https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/001316447903900220 https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/001316447903900... https://psycnet.apa.org/record/1968-09427-001 https://psycnet.apa.org/record/1968-09427-001 You want more? I could give you probably 50 more studies. The literature here is vast and consistent.
fiftyfifty 7y ago
That doesn't jive with the submitted article in the Washington Post: "Research has consistently shown that ACT and SAT scores are strongly linked to family income, mother’s education level and race. The College Board and ACT Inc., which owns the ACT, say their tests are predictive of college success, but (as with many education issues) there is also research showing otherwise." There are studies that have shown rigor of high school course work is the strongest predictor of college success: https://www.chronicle.com/article/Study-Says-Rigor-of/8973 https://www.chronicle.com/article/Study-Says-Rigor-of/8973 I think we can all agree that allowing two private companies to be the gate keepers of higher education is a terrible idea.

SamReidHughes 7y ago

If you have a data driven alternative measure for predicting student success, by all means offer one. The reality is, schools want to discriminate against whites and Asians in favor of dumber middle-class blacks and hispanics. Edit: You have to understand, these people genuinely, religiously believe that a racially diverse student body is somehow better. It's utterly naive to think their motivation is better evaluating student potential.

iaw 7y ago
> discriminate against whites and Asians in favor of dumber middle-class blacks and hispanics I think there's ample evidence to indicate that it's not just intelligence at play but the opportunities available to individual students that makes their relative academic success possible. It's a naive argument that the under-representation of particular classes in higher education is because they're 'dumb'
- SamReidHughes 7y ago
  I didn’t make that argument. The argument is that those attending the institutions are dumber than the Asians and whites they’re replacing (edit: at the margin, obviously), because schools unfairly discriminate in their favor. These aren’t pygmalion geniuses from the ghetto, they’re middle-class kids with cell phones and laptops. Half of black Americans in the Ivy League are from post-civil war immigrant stock. An over-represented minority.
  - TheFullStack 7y ago
    I am an Asian who was definitely discriminated against during the college admission cycle. It really really sucked. Luckily out here in the "real world", a lot of that discrimination flips and I benefit from being an Asian in tech in many ways. I don't feel the least bit guilty about it either.