6 ms·

If it were possible to convert an old econo-box compact car to electric for a reasonable price with roughly the same sort of effort and knowledge as it takes to

If it were possible to convert an old econo-box compact car to electric for a reasonable price with roughly the same sort of effort and knowledge as it takes to do an engine swap (which I can and have done several times) I'd do it. I don't care about range beyond what it takes for me to get from home to work and back again, with the occasional stop at a super market and I don't care about performance beyond what it takes to properly merge into traffic like competent driver. On the occasion that find myself in need of some other sort of car for some special purpose I can rent something appropriate for that.

bob1029 7y ago
The difference between this and a typical engine swap is that the car was never intended to be run this way. Are you planning on putting the batteries where the gas tank was? Will they fit? Will this have an adverse impact on vehicle dynamics? How are you going to manage charging these things? What happens if the battery pack ruptures? Is safety even a concern? Do you want regenerative braking? What sort of range is required? Does the fuel gauge show battery life or is it now useless? What about oil level gauge? Any other internal electronics? How are you going to drive an A/C compressor or is this no longer a concern either? Hydraulic/vacuum assist steering/brakes? There are new problems to solve with this approach. It's certainly not going to be a straightforward process compared to a factory engine swap. There will probably be some body work involved. You will probably have to fabricate completely custom parts to get certain things to work together. I don't see this as a reasonable solution for existing gasoline powered cars. It seems it's a much safer/cheaper/simpler/reliable option to purchase a vehicle designed from the ground up for an electric drivetrain and all of the nuances that go along with that.
- codingdave 7y ago
  > Are you planning on putting the batteries where the gas tank was? Will they fit? No, batteries are larger. People tend to use the trunks for batteries, or convert pickups and put them in the beds. > Will this have an adverse impact on vehicle dynamics? It can, which most people deal with by placing the batteries carefully to maintain the same balance as before. > How are you going to manage charging these things? Most people put the charging plug where the gas cap was. > What happens if the battery pack ruptures? Is safety even a concern? Same as if your engine explodes. Safety is a concern in any car. Problems can happen in any car. Most DIY EVs put a cutoff switch, or even a main line you can literally cut right next to the driver as a final safety net in case of extreme emergencies. Better to kill the car than a person. Does the fuel gauge show battery life or is it now useless? Most people replace the gauges with new ones more applicable to the new information they'll need. I know you had other questions, but it has been 10 years since I dabbling this space, and I don't remember every detail. But yes, there absolutely are new problems to solve. And people have been solving them for 20+ years now. There are books written on it, so if you truly want to know the answers, go read some of the books. Most of your questions either have easy answers, or are just a matter of making a choice between a few options. The hard part is not putting together a working EV system. Most people's hardest task was mounting the motor to their transmission, because it often meant a custom designed, and custom machined mounting plate. So again, you are correct that it is more than an engine swap, but not to the scale you are describing.
  - 40four 7y ago
    Funny how many folks wondering where to put the batteries, trunk seems so obvious after you hear it :) Most people's hardest task was mounting the motor to their transmission Seems like this product is trying to solve that problem. Sounds like a big upgrade from what is currently available to people interested in these type of projects.
    - Shivetya 7y ago
      except of course most trunks have load limits which batteries can quickly exceed. I find it disappointing how quick they are to dismiss issues with ruptured batteries by falling back on "well gas explodes" not acknowledging the issue of environmental and personal danger batteries create that require special handling sure you can cram batteries here and there but the reason for the skate board layout companies have adopted that is to have management of weight, ease of manufacturing, sufficient space for range needs, and more.
      - codingdave 7y ago
        I was only dismissing the questions because the person asking the question was dismissing the entire concept of electric conversions, apparently unaware that they have been done successfully for many years. Besides, ruptured batteries aren't the biggest safety concern. Getting in an accident and having a giant battery fly into the back of your head is a much bigger concern. And most of the concerns are still going to come down to the same solution -- secure them well, maintain them well, and be aware of all the repercussions of their placement.
      - matz1 7y ago
        So "gas explodes" doesn't carry its own environmental issue and personal danger too ?
        bob1029 7y ago
        Gasoline has a whole host of issues, but as far as I know there have been zero recorded cases of a modern gasoline tank spontaneously exploding while the car is sitting undisturbed in a parking lot. The advantages gasoline has here is that it ultimately requires tons of oxygen with a consistent fuel-air mixture in order to combust reliably. Burning gasoline in the open is not nearly as energetic as the process which occurs in a gasoline engine under ideal operating conditions (which are controlled meticulously by a computer for most cars), so even in an accident which results in a fuel leak+fire, you usually have a bit of time to get away from the car before it turns into a complete inferno. Obviously, there are exceptions to this, but it seems to be in a majority of cases the driver/passengers can get out in time. Battery packs do not have the same 'problem'. They have all aspects of their chemical energy available nearly immediately, and can go from zero to 'you are dead' in just a matter of seconds.
- jimnotgym 7y ago
  Somehow I can't imagine driving an A/C compressor is high on the list of needs for classic mini owners. Or indeed, as also mentioned in the article, the owner of a Caterham. The Caterham has a kind of A/C that does not require a compressor, and since they are designed to be built from kits, I can't imagine the other things you mention will trouble them either.
  - Quequau 7y ago
    I would just like to observe that all these sorts of belt or vacuum powered accessories (A/C & Heat, power steering, power brakes) now have all electric alternatives that can be mounted anywhere they will fit so packaging becomes a much more flexible proposition as compared to belt driven accessories.
- chrisdhoover 7y ago
  Go to EV west and look at what they are doing. California hot rod culture is alive and well.
  - auxym 7y ago
    EV West is what I thought of when I read the headline. I bought one of these kits a year ago (for work): https://www.go-ev.com/motors-warp.html#HyPer_9_IS https://www.go-ev.com/motors-warp.html#HyPer_9_IS About the same power as the article. It's a newer kit, but NetGain have been at it for years, so I'm not sure what exactly is new? The Hyper-9 is a nice kit, by the way :)
    - jamiek88 7y ago
      I've got a mini cooper S that I'm thinking of converting to BEV. That hyper9 kit is nice! Glad to hear that someone has experience of using them and recommends them.
    - elihu 7y ago
      Nice, I have one of those on order right now. (The high-voltage double-ended version.) The reason I'm going with the double-ended shaft might be interesting to some people here who might be thinking of doing the same thing. The car I'm converting (Mazda RX-8) has a gear-like thing with a magnetic sensor mounted on one end of the crankshaft, and the ECU uses that to figure out the crankshaft speed and orientation. When people swap engines, they usually transfer that device to the new engine, so that the ECU is (sort of) tricked into thinking the engine is still there and it generates all the right can-bus messages to the rest of the car. I haven't tried this yet myself, but I gather that it's the easiest way to get the anti-lock brake system, the power steering, and the tachometer to work properly, and the extra shaft end gives me a convenient place to mount it.
- SomeOldThrow 7y ago
  > It seems it's a much safer/cheaper/simpler/reliable option to purchase a vehicle designed from the ground up for an electric drivetrain and all of the nuances that go along with that. Cheaper? Have you seen what electric cars retail for? How are you comparing this to the price of conversion?
  - abawany 7y ago
    I suspect they mean buying a used EV such as the last generation Nissan Leaf, which can be had for reasonable prices; I've seen pre 2013 ones for less than 6k.
    - SomeOldThrow 7y ago
      I was under the impression the battery packs are where a LOT of the depreciation comes from, so that's not really a valid comparison unless it's used with a fresh battery pack. Public transit has a great economic argument today for both reducing city emissions, monthly and repair costs, and having a great profile for harvesting brake energy. In many cases you can electrify via wire and save on battery costs. Consumer cars though? Still 100% a luxury. I imagine a lot of other parameters would factor into why you would electrify vs buying off the (still tiny) market other than price. I bet you see these first used in bulk by people re-electrifying hobby cars + upgrading fleets of vans and taxis.
  - 14 7y ago
    I think you are right. Looking at a new EV is probably going to set a Canadian back about 30,000$. That is a lot of money. But I do have a 2005 AWD Hyundai Tucson in my back yard with a blown engine but otherwise in really good shape. It would be a lot of fun to dump the engine and replace it with this. Something I could do in my spare time as it is just sitting in my back yard anyways. I don't think this will be huge that everyone will be doing it but I do think there will be a large enough market of backyard mechanics and the likes who find ways to use these.
- irq-1 7y ago
  These problems only need to be solved once per type of car. A manufacturer could make the end design, new parts, a plan for mechanics, certification, etc... Also, manufacturers use platforms for many different models, so they may only need plans for the platform. For example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_GM_platforms#In_production https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_GM_platforms#In_produc...
  - Klinky 7y ago
    >only need to be solved once per type of car. A manufacturer could make the end design, new parts, a plan for mechanics, certification, etc... This is extremely costly to do. Why would a manufacturer ever do this? They want you going to the dealer for servicing. No way would they support DIY gas to electric conversion kits. There also isn't enough money in converting econoboxes for performance parts manufacturers to do it, or if they did it'd be so costly that it wouldn't be worth it for most people.
    - jamiek88 7y ago
      https://www.theverge.com/2019/9/5/20851784/vw-beetle-electric-conversion-frankfurt-motor-show https://www.theverge.com/2019/9/5/20851784/vw-beetle-electri... It's actually being done by VW, ASton Martin and Jaguar. Probably best for vintage/valuable cars rather than an old toyota yaris but the options are coming.
      - Klinky 7y ago
        Options are coming for niche low volume high margin conversions. These kits will probably cost as much as a new economy car. There is no way that gas to electric conversion will be available at commodity-like prices needed to make it an economical choice.
- zaroth 7y ago
  This product is intellectually exciting in the sense that hobbyists and tinkerers are excited about how they might use it. I don’t think it’s exciting in the sense that it’s opening up a multi-billion dollar market, or some sort of “new way forward”.
- ahupp 7y ago
  The kind of engine swaps I'm familiar with use a wildly different motor, often requiring some fabrication to get everything to fit. And usually these projects have a lot of other DIY changes and junkyard parts. These are not pragmatic projects and things like safety, AC and working gauges are not necessarily a priority.
  - TylerE 7y ago
    It depends. Many conversions are pretty well established these days (Like an LS into a Miata, or hell, an LS into just about ANYTHING) and there are off-the-shelf replacement wiring harnesses, ecus...
- anon1m0us 7y ago
  > It seems it's a much safer/cheaper/simpler/reliable option to purchase a vehicle ... And also much worse for the environment. If you convert an older car, you save all the energy and pollution it takes to make an entirely new vehicle.
- kortilla 7y ago
  FYI: most cars do not have an “oil level” gauge. They have an oil temperature gauge.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
madengr 7y ago
Might as well just get a used Nissan Leaf, probably cheaper than you will spend on an econobox conversion. I bought a 2 year old one, at 19k mikes, for $8,500.
- Hamuko 7y ago
  Yeah, that's probably the actual, realistic economical option. Also, damn those things don't hold any value.
  - Baeocystin 7y ago
    It'll probably start to level off once the ~250-mile range barrier has been broken. Based off conversations with EV owners I've had, anything above 200 miles seems to be the comfort zone where they genuinely don't feel range anxiety throughout their day. Manufacturers are getting close, but as it is, why would anyone want an 83-mile Leaf, when a 120- or 200+ mile one is available? The answer is they don't, which is why you see the early-gen ones going for peanuts. Which, honestly, is not a bad way to get in to EVs as a secondary car. They're nice on the inside, and if the range works for you, dirt cheap to operate. One of my friends recently picked up a few-years-old Chevy Spark for around $5k, and absolutely loves the thing. It's a great city car, and the low range is a non-issue for his needs.
  - TylerE 7y ago
    The economic (and environmental!) option is going to be not to do anything. You'd have to do hundreds of thousands of miles to make up the energy and materials in the new drive train.
- m463 7y ago
  This is the correct answer for someone looking for an econobox. Also, slightly older leafs go much much cheaper than that. I think the crate motor route is probably for someone with an older car with some sort of classic/aesthetic/sentimental value.
- stjohnswarts 7y ago
  Why would you get a Leaf when you can get a model 3 for a little bit more and get a lot more distance?
Robotbeat 7y ago
I looked at conversion long ago. It's an interesting thing to do, and if you underpower it and use a small battery, it can work. But for less price, you can buy a used electric car that will be far better. More efficient, more range, more safety, etc, etc. So I just bought a used Volt (and now a used Leaf for our second car). I'm way happier than I would have been. I'm hoping to upgrade to a used Tesla so I can take road trips pure electrically.
sodosopa 7y ago
As a lover of Volvos, I’d love to see these implanted in the 960 and even the last boxy Volvo v70s.

bob1029 7y ago

The difference between this and a typical engine swap is that the car was never intended to be run this way. Are you planning on putting the batteries where the gas tank was? Will they fit? Will this have an adverse impact on vehicle dynamics? How are you going to manage charging these things? What happens if the battery pack ruptures? Is safety even a concern? Do you want regenerative braking? What sort of range is required? Does the fuel gauge show battery life or is it now useless? What about oil level gauge? Any other internal electronics? How are you going to drive an A/C compressor or is this no longer a concern either? Hydraulic/vacuum assist steering/brakes? There are new problems to solve with this approach. It's certainly not going to be a straightforward process compared to a factory engine swap. There will probably be some body work involved. You will probably have to fabricate completely custom parts to get certain things to work together. I don't see this as a reasonable solution for existing gasoline powered cars. It seems it's a much safer/cheaper/simpler/reliable option to purchase a vehicle designed from the ground up for an electric drivetrain and all of the nuances that go along with that.

codingdave 7y ago
> Are you planning on putting the batteries where the gas tank was? Will they fit? No, batteries are larger. People tend to use the trunks for batteries, or convert pickups and put them in the beds. > Will this have an adverse impact on vehicle dynamics? It can, which most people deal with by placing the batteries carefully to maintain the same balance as before. > How are you going to manage charging these things? Most people put the charging plug where the gas cap was. > What happens if the battery pack ruptures? Is safety even a concern? Same as if your engine explodes. Safety is a concern in any car. Problems can happen in any car. Most DIY EVs put a cutoff switch, or even a main line you can literally cut right next to the driver as a final safety net in case of extreme emergencies. Better to kill the car than a person. Does the fuel gauge show battery life or is it now useless? Most people replace the gauges with new ones more applicable to the new information they'll need. I know you had other questions, but it has been 10 years since I dabbling this space, and I don't remember every detail. But yes, there absolutely are new problems to solve. And people have been solving them for 20+ years now. There are books written on it, so if you truly want to know the answers, go read some of the books. Most of your questions either have easy answers, or are just a matter of making a choice between a few options. The hard part is not putting together a working EV system. Most people's hardest task was mounting the motor to their transmission, because it often meant a custom designed, and custom machined mounting plate. So again, you are correct that it is more than an engine swap, but not to the scale you are describing.
- 40four 7y ago
  Funny how many folks wondering where to put the batteries, trunk seems so obvious after you hear it :) Most people's hardest task was mounting the motor to their transmission Seems like this product is trying to solve that problem. Sounds like a big upgrade from what is currently available to people interested in these type of projects.
  - Shivetya 7y ago
    except of course most trunks have load limits which batteries can quickly exceed. I find it disappointing how quick they are to dismiss issues with ruptured batteries by falling back on "well gas explodes" not acknowledging the issue of environmental and personal danger batteries create that require special handling sure you can cram batteries here and there but the reason for the skate board layout companies have adopted that is to have management of weight, ease of manufacturing, sufficient space for range needs, and more.
    - codingdave 7y ago
      I was only dismissing the questions because the person asking the question was dismissing the entire concept of electric conversions, apparently unaware that they have been done successfully for many years. Besides, ruptured batteries aren't the biggest safety concern. Getting in an accident and having a giant battery fly into the back of your head is a much bigger concern. And most of the concerns are still going to come down to the same solution -- secure them well, maintain them well, and be aware of all the repercussions of their placement.
    - matz1 7y ago
      So "gas explodes" doesn't carry its own environmental issue and personal danger too ?
      - bob1029 7y ago
        Gasoline has a whole host of issues, but as far as I know there have been zero recorded cases of a modern gasoline tank spontaneously exploding while the car is sitting undisturbed in a parking lot. The advantages gasoline has here is that it ultimately requires tons of oxygen with a consistent fuel-air mixture in order to combust reliably. Burning gasoline in the open is not nearly as energetic as the process which occurs in a gasoline engine under ideal operating conditions (which are controlled meticulously by a computer for most cars), so even in an accident which results in a fuel leak+fire, you usually have a bit of time to get away from the car before it turns into a complete inferno. Obviously, there are exceptions to this, but it seems to be in a majority of cases the driver/passengers can get out in time. Battery packs do not have the same 'problem'. They have all aspects of their chemical energy available nearly immediately, and can go from zero to 'you are dead' in just a matter of seconds.
jimnotgym 7y ago
Somehow I can't imagine driving an A/C compressor is high on the list of needs for classic mini owners. Or indeed, as also mentioned in the article, the owner of a Caterham. The Caterham has a kind of A/C that does not require a compressor, and since they are designed to be built from kits, I can't imagine the other things you mention will trouble them either.
- Quequau 7y ago
  I would just like to observe that all these sorts of belt or vacuum powered accessories (A/C & Heat, power steering, power brakes) now have all electric alternatives that can be mounted anywhere they will fit so packaging becomes a much more flexible proposition as compared to belt driven accessories.
chrisdhoover 7y ago
Go to EV west and look at what they are doing. California hot rod culture is alive and well.
- auxym 7y ago
  EV West is what I thought of when I read the headline. I bought one of these kits a year ago (for work): https://www.go-ev.com/motors-warp.html#HyPer_9_IS https://www.go-ev.com/motors-warp.html#HyPer_9_IS About the same power as the article. It's a newer kit, but NetGain have been at it for years, so I'm not sure what exactly is new? The Hyper-9 is a nice kit, by the way :)
  - jamiek88 7y ago
    I've got a mini cooper S that I'm thinking of converting to BEV. That hyper9 kit is nice! Glad to hear that someone has experience of using them and recommends them.
  - elihu 7y ago
    Nice, I have one of those on order right now. (The high-voltage double-ended version.) The reason I'm going with the double-ended shaft might be interesting to some people here who might be thinking of doing the same thing. The car I'm converting (Mazda RX-8) has a gear-like thing with a magnetic sensor mounted on one end of the crankshaft, and the ECU uses that to figure out the crankshaft speed and orientation. When people swap engines, they usually transfer that device to the new engine, so that the ECU is (sort of) tricked into thinking the engine is still there and it generates all the right can-bus messages to the rest of the car. I haven't tried this yet myself, but I gather that it's the easiest way to get the anti-lock brake system, the power steering, and the tachometer to work properly, and the extra shaft end gives me a convenient place to mount it.
SomeOldThrow 7y ago
> It seems it's a much safer/cheaper/simpler/reliable option to purchase a vehicle designed from the ground up for an electric drivetrain and all of the nuances that go along with that. Cheaper? Have you seen what electric cars retail for? How are you comparing this to the price of conversion?
- abawany 7y ago
  I suspect they mean buying a used EV such as the last generation Nissan Leaf, which can be had for reasonable prices; I've seen pre 2013 ones for less than 6k.
  - SomeOldThrow 7y ago
    I was under the impression the battery packs are where a LOT of the depreciation comes from, so that's not really a valid comparison unless it's used with a fresh battery pack. Public transit has a great economic argument today for both reducing city emissions, monthly and repair costs, and having a great profile for harvesting brake energy. In many cases you can electrify via wire and save on battery costs. Consumer cars though? Still 100% a luxury. I imagine a lot of other parameters would factor into why you would electrify vs buying off the (still tiny) market other than price. I bet you see these first used in bulk by people re-electrifying hobby cars + upgrading fleets of vans and taxis.
- 14 7y ago
  I think you are right. Looking at a new EV is probably going to set a Canadian back about 30,000$. That is a lot of money. But I do have a 2005 AWD Hyundai Tucson in my back yard with a blown engine but otherwise in really good shape. It would be a lot of fun to dump the engine and replace it with this. Something I could do in my spare time as it is just sitting in my back yard anyways. I don't think this will be huge that everyone will be doing it but I do think there will be a large enough market of backyard mechanics and the likes who find ways to use these.
irq-1 7y ago
These problems only need to be solved once per type of car. A manufacturer could make the end design, new parts, a plan for mechanics, certification, etc... Also, manufacturers use platforms for many different models, so they may only need plans for the platform. For example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_GM_platforms#In_production https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_GM_platforms#In_produc...
- Klinky 7y ago
  >only need to be solved once per type of car. A manufacturer could make the end design, new parts, a plan for mechanics, certification, etc... This is extremely costly to do. Why would a manufacturer ever do this? They want you going to the dealer for servicing. No way would they support DIY gas to electric conversion kits. There also isn't enough money in converting econoboxes for performance parts manufacturers to do it, or if they did it'd be so costly that it wouldn't be worth it for most people.
  - jamiek88 7y ago
    https://www.theverge.com/2019/9/5/20851784/vw-beetle-electric-conversion-frankfurt-motor-show https://www.theverge.com/2019/9/5/20851784/vw-beetle-electri... It's actually being done by VW, ASton Martin and Jaguar. Probably best for vintage/valuable cars rather than an old toyota yaris but the options are coming.
    - Klinky 7y ago
      Options are coming for niche low volume high margin conversions. These kits will probably cost as much as a new economy car. There is no way that gas to electric conversion will be available at commodity-like prices needed to make it an economical choice.
zaroth 7y ago
This product is intellectually exciting in the sense that hobbyists and tinkerers are excited about how they might use it. I don’t think it’s exciting in the sense that it’s opening up a multi-billion dollar market, or some sort of “new way forward”.
ahupp 7y ago
The kind of engine swaps I'm familiar with use a wildly different motor, often requiring some fabrication to get everything to fit. And usually these projects have a lot of other DIY changes and junkyard parts. These are not pragmatic projects and things like safety, AC and working gauges are not necessarily a priority.
- TylerE 7y ago
  It depends. Many conversions are pretty well established these days (Like an LS into a Miata, or hell, an LS into just about ANYTHING) and there are off-the-shelf replacement wiring harnesses, ecus...
anon1m0us 7y ago
> It seems it's a much safer/cheaper/simpler/reliable option to purchase a vehicle ... And also much worse for the environment. If you convert an older car, you save all the energy and pollution it takes to make an entirely new vehicle.
kortilla 7y ago
FYI: most cars do not have an “oil level” gauge. They have an oil temperature gauge.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

madengr 7y ago

Might as well just get a used Nissan Leaf, probably cheaper than you will spend on an econobox conversion. I bought a 2 year old one, at 19k mikes, for $8,500.

Hamuko 7y ago
Yeah, that's probably the actual, realistic economical option. Also, damn those things don't hold any value.
- Baeocystin 7y ago
  It'll probably start to level off once the ~250-mile range barrier has been broken. Based off conversations with EV owners I've had, anything above 200 miles seems to be the comfort zone where they genuinely don't feel range anxiety throughout their day. Manufacturers are getting close, but as it is, why would anyone want an 83-mile Leaf, when a 120- or 200+ mile one is available? The answer is they don't, which is why you see the early-gen ones going for peanuts. Which, honestly, is not a bad way to get in to EVs as a secondary car. They're nice on the inside, and if the range works for you, dirt cheap to operate. One of my friends recently picked up a few-years-old Chevy Spark for around $5k, and absolutely loves the thing. It's a great city car, and the low range is a non-issue for his needs.
- TylerE 7y ago
  The economic (and environmental!) option is going to be not to do anything. You'd have to do hundreds of thousands of miles to make up the energy and materials in the new drive train.
m463 7y ago
This is the correct answer for someone looking for an econobox. Also, slightly older leafs go much much cheaper than that. I think the crate motor route is probably for someone with an older car with some sort of classic/aesthetic/sentimental value.
stjohnswarts 7y ago
Why would you get a Leaf when you can get a model 3 for a little bit more and get a lot more distance?

Robotbeat 7y ago

I looked at conversion long ago. It's an interesting thing to do, and if you underpower it and use a small battery, it can work. But for less price, you can buy a used electric car that will be far better. More efficient, more range, more safety, etc, etc. So I just bought a used Volt (and now a used Leaf for our second car). I'm way happier than I would have been. I'm hoping to upgrade to a used Tesla so I can take road trips pure electrically.

sodosopa 7y ago

As a lover of Volvos, I’d love to see these implanted in the 960 and even the last boxy Volvo v70s.