5 ms·

International Repair Day

133 points by etiam 7y ago

ekianjo 7y ago
This seems to be all about community-based repair events. How about doing some lobby towards legislators and companies to do something about their devices that can't even be opened anymore by end users?
- ahbyb 7y ago
  Heh. How do I lobby to oppose this? I don't want bulkier, thicker and uglier devices just so I can open them, because I have no interest in doing so. And I definitely don't want this written into law...
  - AlexDragusin 7y ago
    On the contrary, devices can be made thin and sleek while being repairable. Seems the marketing has worked wonders in making some people believe that thin and sleek can only be achieved by sacrificing repair-ability. This is not just an issue of corporations greed but an issue of efficient use of finite resources on this planet.
    - ahbyb 7y ago
      >On the contrary, devices can be made thin and sleek while being repairable. I'll believe it when I see it. Thus far all easily repairable mobile phones I've seen were ugly and bulky compared to normal phones.
      - AlexDragusin 7y ago
        Of course, you won't see it until the makers get their shit together. Why else would they glue things such that one can't replace even some cheap component and instead having to buy a new phone? For now the ruse brings the loot, as with everything, it goes in waves, this shall pass and we shall eventually get to a stage where we will find balance in this matter. Currently, the battery is what pretty much limits the device profile. All the miniaturization achieved on the components should actually aid in nice, modular design that allows replacement of particular faulty part (if you can deglue the whole thing first).
      - TeMPOraL 7y ago
        Take a look at this list then: https://www.ifixit.com/smartphone-repairability?sort=score https://www.ifixit.com/smartphone-repairability?sort=score You'll see plenty of nice devices scoring high marks. You'll also find comparable competitors scoring low mark. Lack of repairability is mostly a choice - an active choice. Browsing the low scores on the list I linked to, you'll see that companies do extra work to reduce repairability, sometimes with express purpose of just making things harder to repair. There are no technical reasons why so many devices are not repairable. There is only moral bankrupcy at institutional level, and lack of regulation that would force the market players to stop behaving antisocially.
        ahbyb 7y ago
        I've looked at the list and all the devices there are thick (like, 2009-level thick) and have huge bezels.
        TeMPOraL 7y ago
        Look closer. Not just at maximum score, but at the spectrum. You can see e.g. iPhones scoring 7 and (for the last two years) 6 out of 10, whereas Samsung Galaxy phones went from 8/10 (S4) to 3/10 (S10) or even 2/10 (Fold). This list is nice demonstrator that looks have very little to do with repairability.
      - jotm 7y ago
        iPhone 4. And probably 5. I've only ever opened a couple of iPhone 4 and 4s, but they were definitely way more repair friendly than an S8 or a HTC One. And does 1mm under 9mm even matter? Maybe if you're one of those who claim a 15 inch laptop will break your back lol
      - ekianjo 7y ago
        Lg v20 is slim enough and can be serviced and opened easily.
  - rzzzt 7y ago
    Is there really no way to manufacture thin and light devices with screws instead of glueing parts together? Do standardized connectors also stand in the way of innovation?
    - KozmoNau7 7y ago
      A screw and the attendant material to secure that screw into takes up more space than a bit of glue, and—crucially—is more expensive, both in regards to manufacturing and assembly.
      - rzzzt 7y ago
        It is only more expensive if one doesn't factor in the "toll" a non-working, unrepairable, yet sleek device takes on the environment.
        TeMPOraL 7y ago
        Reason #74656 why we desperately need emission taxing.
        deleted 7y ago
        [deleted]
      - ekianjo 7y ago
        More expensive? Thats very marginal additional cost. Screws cost close to nothing.
    - sokoloff 7y ago
      Standards, (almost?) by definition, do stand in the way of innovation. Think about the standard represented by the micro-USB for low voltage charging and data connection. If we standardized on power connections in 1990, we'd have barrel jacks on many things instead of micro-USB. For that matter, if we standardized on USB connectors in 1996, our phones might all have giant USB type-B connectors on them. Can't go against the standard, of course. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USB#/media/File:USB_Type-B_receptacle.svg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USB#/media/File:USB_Type-B_rec...
  - simion314 7y ago
    This laws are not targeted only at smatphones or laptops. You do not need a washing machine to be slicker or use some cheap parts so the manufacturer gains 2$ .I would pay those extra 2$ so I get better screws then plastic ones or glue. Also I have a pump that has a part that breaks 2 times a year and I have to replace that part. I would pay 2 times more on the part if it break 2 times less often, If my pump was made by Apple I would have to send it far away and wait 1 month to have it fixed.
    - a3n 7y ago
      > If my pump was made by Apple I would have to send it far away and wait 1 month to have it fixed. Or be told you're holding it wrong.
- lnsru 7y ago
  Community repair is a way to go. Majority of people are incapable repairing a bicycle. For some of them repairing washing machine with connected power plug could be lethal.
  - jdnenej 7y ago
    The right to repair movement is not about doing everything yourself but making it possible and fast for skilled people to repair. The cost difference between paying someone to completely deconstruct a MacBook and spent ages with a plastic card and glue melting chemicals and having to source a hard to find unofficial battery vs using a screwdriver and an official battery is enormous.
- jgunter 7y ago
  Many of those celebrating are part of Right to Repair campaigns. In Europe, we just launched this campaign: https://repair.eu https://repair.eu Europe just passed the first regulation requiring design for repair for some household appliances, and we are pushing for more products to be included. We're just getting started.
  - zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC 7y ago
    I dunno, is it funny or is it sad that a website that supposedly argues for repairing stuff is obviously not meant to be used on older devices, with gigantic text and huge amounts of whitespace minimizing the content on the screen? I have repaired my laptop many times, but I'll have to throw it away because websites insist that what you could do with it ten years ago now requires throwing it away, not because it's somehow not in working order.
tda 7y ago
If we would decide to tax raw materials instead of labour and income, repair would make economic sense again. Raw material usage is not sustainable as the resources are finite. Labour on the other hand is very sustainable, given enough time the supply of labour is infinite and usage of labour is sustainable. What we tax and what not is not a given, but something that can and should be revised to gnudge the world into better shape. Even though I greatly sympasize with the right to repair, as long as it is uneconomical to do repairs due to incentives (taxation) making it so, we are not really addressing the root cause and one could argue that this repair day is distracting attention from the real issues
- uhryks 7y ago
  I would add that labour is not only sustainable but that there's even a shortage of it in our economy.
  - ryandrake 7y ago
    Which economy is that? I didn't think there was an economy on earth near 100% labor force participation rate.
- kiba 7y ago
  I don't believe raw material usage is a problem so much as environmental pollution.
  - ihaveajob 7y ago
    That's true, but material extraction is a good enough proxy, and it's easier to measure than environmental pollution.
- nrp 7y ago
  Taxing material use and refunding at material recovery is not totally unreasonable, but it ignores the energy that goes into both processing steps and the people required to do labor. Repair is totally compatible with this, since it reduces waste of all of material, energy, and labor. It’s also something consumers can readily participate in and influence, unlike tax policy.
The_rationalist 7y ago
The true repairman will repair man.
ArtWomb 7y ago
Celebrating by repairing a 10 year old fridge. Fuse blew out, its soldered to control panel, so just called customer support, got part number, shipped via Amazon Prime using reward points, tossed out the old, popped in the new and voila! Still think the vendor should have comped a replacement due to obvious design flaw of non-removable fuses. Sort of defeats the entire purpose ;)
- avian 7y ago
  The non-removable fuse is probably there so that in case of a fault you have a non-functional fridge instead of a burnt down house.
  - war1025 7y ago
    I don't think he's arguing that the fuse shouldn't be there. Just that it should be replaceable without soldering.
- ryandrake 7y ago
  Celebrated early yesterday by replacing 5 capacitors on my stereo receiver's HDMI I/O board for $1.00 total and 15 minutes of work, saving me from having to replace it with a $X00 new one.
jotm 7y ago
Perfect thread to vent. The difference between an Elitebook 8770w and a ZBook 17 G2 is astounding. It's like HP is telling everyone to get fucked. The Elitebooks (8770 and older) used metal, was easy to open up multiple times, had a great keyboard. The ZBook, a new model, you'd be lucky to open it 3 times before the absolutely shit plastic clips break, along with the absolutely shit plastic molds for the nuts. The keyboard is some Apple butterfly level of shit, mushy keys that fail to register after a few years. The touchpad buttons went from sturdy rubber to creaky plastic. What an upgrade.
- pixl97 7y ago
  Those plastic clips suck so bad. Had so many break when trying to replace broken screens and such.
GaryNumanVevo 7y ago
I recently saved $800 dollars by repairing my SO's power steering system. Fortunately I found a PDF of the repair manual with every subsystem and procedure listed. I was able to find the exact assembly I needed to replace and got it shipped from Amazon. Her car is from 2001 so I was surprised to find they still sell the high pressure hose I needed. Anyways, after about 150$ in parts and tools and 4 hours later, I had completely flushed her power steering, installed the new hose, brackets, etc. I even got to take a wheel off the car. It's incredibly satisfying to maintain a physical system like a car, everything has a purpose.
jsharf 7y ago
Why are there so many fixit events in Europe and so few in the US? Northern California should have no shortage of tech workers with the skills necessary to fix devices. We only have a single event? And China isn't even on the map, in terms of events. But I find that not so surprising.
Merrill 7y ago
Manufacturers are motivated to make products that can't be repaired so that a) customers will buy more frequently and b) the manufacturer does not have to stock and supply repair parts. The latter is particularly onerous as the lifetime of the product increases. Only long-lived expensive capital goods have parts supplied for 20 or 40 years, and for some of these special custom order from third parties is the solution.

133 points by etiam 7y ago

This seems to be all about community-based repair events. How about doing some lobby towards legislators and companies to do something about their devices that can't even be opened anymore by end users?

ahbyb 7y ago
Heh. How do I lobby to oppose this? I don't want bulkier, thicker and uglier devices just so I can open them, because I have no interest in doing so. And I definitely don't want this written into law...
- AlexDragusin 7y ago
  On the contrary, devices can be made thin and sleek while being repairable. Seems the marketing has worked wonders in making some people believe that thin and sleek can only be achieved by sacrificing repair-ability. This is not just an issue of corporations greed but an issue of efficient use of finite resources on this planet.
  - ahbyb 7y ago
    >On the contrary, devices can be made thin and sleek while being repairable. I'll believe it when I see it. Thus far all easily repairable mobile phones I've seen were ugly and bulky compared to normal phones.
    - AlexDragusin 7y ago
      Of course, you won't see it until the makers get their shit together. Why else would they glue things such that one can't replace even some cheap component and instead having to buy a new phone? For now the ruse brings the loot, as with everything, it goes in waves, this shall pass and we shall eventually get to a stage where we will find balance in this matter. Currently, the battery is what pretty much limits the device profile. All the miniaturization achieved on the components should actually aid in nice, modular design that allows replacement of particular faulty part (if you can deglue the whole thing first).
    - TeMPOraL 7y ago
      Take a look at this list then: https://www.ifixit.com/smartphone-repairability?sort=score https://www.ifixit.com/smartphone-repairability?sort=score You'll see plenty of nice devices scoring high marks. You'll also find comparable competitors scoring low mark. Lack of repairability is mostly a choice - an active choice. Browsing the low scores on the list I linked to, you'll see that companies do extra work to reduce repairability, sometimes with express purpose of just making things harder to repair. There are no technical reasons why so many devices are not repairable. There is only moral bankrupcy at institutional level, and lack of regulation that would force the market players to stop behaving antisocially.
      - ahbyb 7y ago
        I've looked at the list and all the devices there are thick (like, 2009-level thick) and have huge bezels.
        TeMPOraL 7y ago
        Look closer. Not just at maximum score, but at the spectrum. You can see e.g. iPhones scoring 7 and (for the last two years) 6 out of 10, whereas Samsung Galaxy phones went from 8/10 (S4) to 3/10 (S10) or even 2/10 (Fold). This list is nice demonstrator that looks have very little to do with repairability.
    - jotm 7y ago
      iPhone 4. And probably 5. I've only ever opened a couple of iPhone 4 and 4s, but they were definitely way more repair friendly than an S8 or a HTC One. And does 1mm under 9mm even matter? Maybe if you're one of those who claim a 15 inch laptop will break your back lol
    - ekianjo 7y ago
      Lg v20 is slim enough and can be serviced and opened easily.
- rzzzt 7y ago
  Is there really no way to manufacture thin and light devices with screws instead of glueing parts together? Do standardized connectors also stand in the way of innovation?
  - KozmoNau7 7y ago
    A screw and the attendant material to secure that screw into takes up more space than a bit of glue, and—crucially—is more expensive, both in regards to manufacturing and assembly.
    - rzzzt 7y ago
      It is only more expensive if one doesn't factor in the "toll" a non-working, unrepairable, yet sleek device takes on the environment.
      - TeMPOraL 7y ago
        Reason #74656 why we desperately need emission taxing.
      - deleted 7y ago
        [deleted]
    - ekianjo 7y ago
      More expensive? Thats very marginal additional cost. Screws cost close to nothing.
  - sokoloff 7y ago
    Standards, (almost?) by definition, do stand in the way of innovation. Think about the standard represented by the micro-USB for low voltage charging and data connection. If we standardized on power connections in 1990, we'd have barrel jacks on many things instead of micro-USB. For that matter, if we standardized on USB connectors in 1996, our phones might all have giant USB type-B connectors on them. Can't go against the standard, of course. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USB#/media/File:USB_Type-B_receptacle.svg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USB#/media/File:USB_Type-B_rec...
- simion314 7y ago
  This laws are not targeted only at smatphones or laptops. You do not need a washing machine to be slicker or use some cheap parts so the manufacturer gains 2$ .I would pay those extra 2$ so I get better screws then plastic ones or glue. Also I have a pump that has a part that breaks 2 times a year and I have to replace that part. I would pay 2 times more on the part if it break 2 times less often, If my pump was made by Apple I would have to send it far away and wait 1 month to have it fixed.
  - a3n 7y ago
    > If my pump was made by Apple I would have to send it far away and wait 1 month to have it fixed. Or be told you're holding it wrong.
lnsru 7y ago
Community repair is a way to go. Majority of people are incapable repairing a bicycle. For some of them repairing washing machine with connected power plug could be lethal.
- jdnenej 7y ago
  The right to repair movement is not about doing everything yourself but making it possible and fast for skilled people to repair. The cost difference between paying someone to completely deconstruct a MacBook and spent ages with a plastic card and glue melting chemicals and having to source a hard to find unofficial battery vs using a screwdriver and an official battery is enormous.
jgunter 7y ago
Many of those celebrating are part of Right to Repair campaigns. In Europe, we just launched this campaign: https://repair.eu https://repair.eu Europe just passed the first regulation requiring design for repair for some household appliances, and we are pushing for more products to be included. We're just getting started.
- zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC 7y ago
  I dunno, is it funny or is it sad that a website that supposedly argues for repairing stuff is obviously not meant to be used on older devices, with gigantic text and huge amounts of whitespace minimizing the content on the screen? I have repaired my laptop many times, but I'll have to throw it away because websites insist that what you could do with it ten years ago now requires throwing it away, not because it's somehow not in working order.

tda 7y ago

If we would decide to tax raw materials instead of labour and income, repair would make economic sense again. Raw material usage is not sustainable as the resources are finite. Labour on the other hand is very sustainable, given enough time the supply of labour is infinite and usage of labour is sustainable. What we tax and what not is not a given, but something that can and should be revised to gnudge the world into better shape. Even though I greatly sympasize with the right to repair, as long as it is uneconomical to do repairs due to incentives (taxation) making it so, we are not really addressing the root cause and one could argue that this repair day is distracting attention from the real issues

uhryks 7y ago
I would add that labour is not only sustainable but that there's even a shortage of it in our economy.
- ryandrake 7y ago
  Which economy is that? I didn't think there was an economy on earth near 100% labor force participation rate.
kiba 7y ago
I don't believe raw material usage is a problem so much as environmental pollution.
- ihaveajob 7y ago
  That's true, but material extraction is a good enough proxy, and it's easier to measure than environmental pollution.
nrp 7y ago
Taxing material use and refunding at material recovery is not totally unreasonable, but it ignores the energy that goes into both processing steps and the people required to do labor. Repair is totally compatible with this, since it reduces waste of all of material, energy, and labor. It’s also something consumers can readily participate in and influence, unlike tax policy.

The_rationalist 7y ago

The true repairman will repair man.

ArtWomb 7y ago

Celebrating by repairing a 10 year old fridge. Fuse blew out, its soldered to control panel, so just called customer support, got part number, shipped via Amazon Prime using reward points, tossed out the old, popped in the new and voila! Still think the vendor should have comped a replacement due to obvious design flaw of non-removable fuses. Sort of defeats the entire purpose ;)

avian 7y ago
The non-removable fuse is probably there so that in case of a fault you have a non-functional fridge instead of a burnt down house.
- war1025 7y ago
  I don't think he's arguing that the fuse shouldn't be there. Just that it should be replaceable without soldering.
ryandrake 7y ago
Celebrated early yesterday by replacing 5 capacitors on my stereo receiver's HDMI I/O board for $1.00 total and 15 minutes of work, saving me from having to replace it with a $X00 new one.

jotm 7y ago

Perfect thread to vent. The difference between an Elitebook 8770w and a ZBook 17 G2 is astounding. It's like HP is telling everyone to get fucked. The Elitebooks (8770 and older) used metal, was easy to open up multiple times, had a great keyboard. The ZBook, a new model, you'd be lucky to open it 3 times before the absolutely shit plastic clips break, along with the absolutely shit plastic molds for the nuts. The keyboard is some Apple butterfly level of shit, mushy keys that fail to register after a few years. The touchpad buttons went from sturdy rubber to creaky plastic. What an upgrade.

pixl97 7y ago
Those plastic clips suck so bad. Had so many break when trying to replace broken screens and such.

GaryNumanVevo 7y ago

I recently saved $800 dollars by repairing my SO's power steering system. Fortunately I found a PDF of the repair manual with every subsystem and procedure listed. I was able to find the exact assembly I needed to replace and got it shipped from Amazon. Her car is from 2001 so I was surprised to find they still sell the high pressure hose I needed. Anyways, after about 150$ in parts and tools and 4 hours later, I had completely flushed her power steering, installed the new hose, brackets, etc. I even got to take a wheel off the car. It's incredibly satisfying to maintain a physical system like a car, everything has a purpose.

jsharf 7y ago

Why are there so many fixit events in Europe and so few in the US? Northern California should have no shortage of tech workers with the skills necessary to fix devices. We only have a single event? And China isn't even on the map, in terms of events. But I find that not so surprising.

Merrill 7y ago

Manufacturers are motivated to make products that can't be repaired so that a) customers will buy more frequently and b) the manufacturer does not have to stock and supply repair parts. The latter is particularly onerous as the lifetime of the product increases. Only long-lived expensive capital goods have parts supplied for 20 or 40 years, and for some of these special custom order from third parties is the solution.