4 ms·

I guess if we're going to discuss this article again, I should get to say my piece about it again: > To lounge on a beach or travel the world and not actively

I guess if we're going to discuss this article again, I should get to say my piece about it again: > To lounge on a beach or travel the world and not actively engage in building your arsenal of expertise is professional malpractice. I've seen this thought expressed before in writing about Startups. If you're not burning your life down 24/7 in the struggle to make it Big, you're doing it wrong. But that's silly. The entire goal of building a business, in my mind, is to get the point where you can lounge on a beach or travel the world and not need to actively engage in anything except the pursuit of happiness. I personally averaged out at a little less than four hours of work per week in 2017, running the sort of low maintenance, feature complete, Software-as-a-Service business that the author spends a paragraph explaining is not in fact a "serious company". But look at the product and you'll see craftsmanship. Ten years of work, in fact as of roughly today. But never at the author's pace. Always at mine. Those two things are not mutually exclusive. That's the great thing about building a business. You can do it any way you like. [from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16248810 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16248810]

keiferski 7y ago
I think you're missing the point of craftsmanship as a general value. It is not about extracting and then spending resources. It's about dedicating your time, perhaps even your life, to mastering a skill. Traditional Japanese culture understood this and that's why you still get people like Jiro.[1] In the West, the only remaining traditional craftsmen that I can think of offhand are the bespoke tailors in Savile Row and their counterparts in France and Italy. In the craftsmanship model, the pursuit of happiness is the pursuit of purpose and mastery, not simply the pursuit of sensory pleasures and relaxation. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jiro_Ono_(chef) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jiro_Ono_(chef)
- jasonkester 7y ago
  But I am dedicating my time and my life to mastering a skill. That skill is Rock Climbing. To do so, I have also needed to find a way to live at a world class bouldering area and to spend 4 full days per week training and climbing, which means not having a full time job. Building a software business is a means to that end. Keep in mind, also, that if one begins programming at age six and does it every day for 40 odd years, one tends to achieve mastery of programming as well. Even if one figures out a way to not need to do it full time for the last half dozen of those years.
  - keiferski 7y ago
    > But I am dedicating my time and my life to mastering a skill. That skill is Rock Climbing. I'm not certain that rock climbing qualifies as a craft, as you aren't creating anything. Nonetheless, that distinction isn't important, and I certainly do think there is merit in the idea that a starting a business is a good way to earn income in order focus energy on something more important. However, that isn't the viewpoint that you expressed in your initial comment; it is the opposite ("lounge on the beach, travel the world...") > Keep in mind, also, that if one begins programming at age six and does it every day for 40 odd years, one tends to achieve mastery of programming as well. How are you defining mastery? As the ability to make a respectable income with low effort required? That seems a fairly low bar. I'm not entirely sure that programming is best thought of as a craft, but assuming that it is: someone programming every day for 8 hours a day for 40 years would surely have a greater mastery than someone who only does it part-time.
    - jasonkester 7y ago
      someone programming every day for 8 hours a day for 40 years would surely have a greater mastery than someone who only does it part-time. I think you hit it there. We're not disagreeing. I'd just add to your point that one might still retain that mastery gained over 40 years of practice if one dialed things back for the next five years to focus on something else.
    - wolco 7y ago
      If the four hours are spent coding and the rest of the day thoughts around those structures are experienced and expanded on then mastery is possible. 8 hours a day with meetings, emails, phone calls and shoulder taps mastery is almost impossible.
bjelkeman-again 7y ago
My pursuit of happiness consists of meaningful work. My startups reflect that. If I ended up on a beach long term, I am sure I would be starting a new business right there, removing pollution or whatever.
dang 7y ago
Please don't copy-paste comments on HN. That lowers the signal-noise ratio. If you don't have something new to say, it's fine to let your old comment stand for itself.
- fierarul 7y ago
  Did this repost have anything new to say? Why not let the old thread speak for itself? Should HN block reposts? Note he copied his own comment... Which the majority of people wouldn't have seen otherwise because nobody goes through all the threads of all the reposts to see what was discussed back then. Please don't teach people how to self-censor.
  - dang 7y ago
    HN threads are supposed to be conversations. In conversation one doesn't take a recording of what one said in a previous conversation and replay it. One makes a fresh statement of one's views, even if they're mostly the same as what one has thought in the past. That's part of how we relate to each other. https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&query=by%3Adang%20threads%20conversations&sort=byDate&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que... Submissions and comments play different roles. Submissions provide topics for conversation. Once enough time has gone by—on HN, about a year—the cache is considered clear and the floor is open for a fresh conversation on that topic. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsfaq.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsfaq.html > Please don't teach people how to self-censor. You could say that about any rule that asks users to do one thing rather than another. I think most people here would support "please don't copy/paste into the threads" as serving the overall quality of the forum rather than seeing it as a censorship issue. This is the sort of case where it's probably good to have a rule, since the thing we want to avoid is having copy/pasting become common. https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&query=by%3Adang%20copy%20paste&sort=byDate&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...
    - fierarul 7y ago
      So, if the same person happens to hit a repost and still holds the same opinion they want to publicly state, they are supposed to rephrase it? How does that help your signal/noise ratio: this seems to increase noise. And I totally see a scenario where copy paste makes sense. Maybe the person wanted to have a discussion about their idea and there wasn't enough engagement (for whatever reason) previously. Repeating (and copy-pasting) the same idea with the hope that this time it gets discussion and cleared up seems totally fine. Even in real life people do totally repeat themselves. Anyhoo, you seem to be some sort of admin, so I guess this is important for you folks. My 2c.
cpursley 7y ago
Balance and sustainability are so important. Do you mind sharing the name/url of your SaaS business?
- factsaresacred 7y ago
  Click on his username: https://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=jasonkester https://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=jasonkester Many of his older comments about SaaS, freedom and business are gold.
bhldev 7y ago
This is a way. But you still focused on craft. You just took much longer to do it and in smaller chunks. Also you probably underestimate your own skill or have some perfect combination of skills to makeup for lack of focus. It's possible that for most people your way wouldn't work and the alternative way (putting in a lot of time) works better. Also at the start you could not have put in only 4 hours. You put in hundreds if not thousands of hours and only in maintenance mode do you go down to nothing. There's probably time you aren't counting either. All your life led up to that moment and all that. So I think you and people like you are the exception and saying what the OP says is much more realistic and widely applicable. It's simply not possible to get where you want to go without putting in time (talent luck market and perseeverence could lower time to near zero but that's the exception).
tonyarkles 7y ago
I find your comment exceptionally interesting, because I find it really easy to square what you’re saying and what the article is saying. A couple hypotheses that I’ve been chewing on for a few years now: - the “grow huge or go home” startup is one path, but not the only path. Looking around your own city will make it obvious that smaller profitable businesses that provide goods or services do exist in this world and are a perfectly reasonable way to make money. I, personally, am perfectly happy to be involved in a business that makes a consistent healthy profit, rather than being perpetually in the red, chasing hockey stick growth. - putting time/money into things that will pay consistent dividends is huge leverage. In your case, you put time into your product upfront and are now reaping those dividends. You don’t say explicitly whether you built it yourself or hired someone to do it, but either way... over a decade, you either invested time or money into it to turn it into a dividend-generating machine - in a lot of ways, the ultimate goal for a business is to turn into something that can continue to run without the owner/founder’s involvement at all. It may not get 100% there while the owner is still around, but if the business isn’t something that can eventually be sold and managed by someone else, it’s more a job than a business, and when the owner retires, the business disappears too. For me, your model of a lifestyle business is beautiful, but it’s significantly different than the 4 Hour Work Week model of a lifestyle business. Those two end up getting lumped together and depending on which model people are thinking about when they read “lifestyle business”, they have significantly different reactions. My own reactions: - “I spent 10 years building a SaaS product that makes me enough money to go rock climbing all the time”: AWESOME! Nicely done! That is fantastic! - “I spent a few months tracking down suppliers on AliExpress that can dropship cheap sunglasses. This makes enough money to go rock climbing all the time”: Urgh... well... hopefully that works out well for you long term I guess.

keiferski 7y ago

I think you're missing the point of craftsmanship as a general value. It is not about extracting and then spending resources. It's about dedicating your time, perhaps even your life, to mastering a skill. Traditional Japanese culture understood this and that's why you still get people like Jiro.[1] In the West, the only remaining traditional craftsmen that I can think of offhand are the bespoke tailors in Savile Row and their counterparts in France and Italy. In the craftsmanship model, the pursuit of happiness is the pursuit of purpose and mastery, not simply the pursuit of sensory pleasures and relaxation. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jiro_Ono_(chef) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jiro_Ono_(chef)

jasonkester 7y ago
But I am dedicating my time and my life to mastering a skill. That skill is Rock Climbing. To do so, I have also needed to find a way to live at a world class bouldering area and to spend 4 full days per week training and climbing, which means not having a full time job. Building a software business is a means to that end. Keep in mind, also, that if one begins programming at age six and does it every day for 40 odd years, one tends to achieve mastery of programming as well. Even if one figures out a way to not need to do it full time for the last half dozen of those years.
- keiferski 7y ago
  > But I am dedicating my time and my life to mastering a skill. That skill is Rock Climbing. I'm not certain that rock climbing qualifies as a craft, as you aren't creating anything. Nonetheless, that distinction isn't important, and I certainly do think there is merit in the idea that a starting a business is a good way to earn income in order focus energy on something more important. However, that isn't the viewpoint that you expressed in your initial comment; it is the opposite ("lounge on the beach, travel the world...") > Keep in mind, also, that if one begins programming at age six and does it every day for 40 odd years, one tends to achieve mastery of programming as well. How are you defining mastery? As the ability to make a respectable income with low effort required? That seems a fairly low bar. I'm not entirely sure that programming is best thought of as a craft, but assuming that it is: someone programming every day for 8 hours a day for 40 years would surely have a greater mastery than someone who only does it part-time.
  - jasonkester 7y ago
    someone programming every day for 8 hours a day for 40 years would surely have a greater mastery than someone who only does it part-time. I think you hit it there. We're not disagreeing. I'd just add to your point that one might still retain that mastery gained over 40 years of practice if one dialed things back for the next five years to focus on something else.
  - wolco 7y ago
    If the four hours are spent coding and the rest of the day thoughts around those structures are experienced and expanded on then mastery is possible. 8 hours a day with meetings, emails, phone calls and shoulder taps mastery is almost impossible.

bjelkeman-again 7y ago

My pursuit of happiness consists of meaningful work. My startups reflect that. If I ended up on a beach long term, I am sure I would be starting a new business right there, removing pollution or whatever.

dang 7y ago

Please don't copy-paste comments on HN. That lowers the signal-noise ratio. If you don't have something new to say, it's fine to let your old comment stand for itself.

fierarul 7y ago
Did this repost have anything new to say? Why not let the old thread speak for itself? Should HN block reposts? Note he copied his own comment... Which the majority of people wouldn't have seen otherwise because nobody goes through all the threads of all the reposts to see what was discussed back then. Please don't teach people how to self-censor.
- dang 7y ago
  HN threads are supposed to be conversations. In conversation one doesn't take a recording of what one said in a previous conversation and replay it. One makes a fresh statement of one's views, even if they're mostly the same as what one has thought in the past. That's part of how we relate to each other. https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&query=by%3Adang%20threads%20conversations&sort=byDate&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que... Submissions and comments play different roles. Submissions provide topics for conversation. Once enough time has gone by—on HN, about a year—the cache is considered clear and the floor is open for a fresh conversation on that topic. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsfaq.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsfaq.html > Please don't teach people how to self-censor. You could say that about any rule that asks users to do one thing rather than another. I think most people here would support "please don't copy/paste into the threads" as serving the overall quality of the forum rather than seeing it as a censorship issue. This is the sort of case where it's probably good to have a rule, since the thing we want to avoid is having copy/pasting become common. https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&query=by%3Adang%20copy%20paste&sort=byDate&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...
  - fierarul 7y ago
    So, if the same person happens to hit a repost and still holds the same opinion they want to publicly state, they are supposed to rephrase it? How does that help your signal/noise ratio: this seems to increase noise. And I totally see a scenario where copy paste makes sense. Maybe the person wanted to have a discussion about their idea and there wasn't enough engagement (for whatever reason) previously. Repeating (and copy-pasting) the same idea with the hope that this time it gets discussion and cleared up seems totally fine. Even in real life people do totally repeat themselves. Anyhoo, you seem to be some sort of admin, so I guess this is important for you folks. My 2c.

cpursley 7y ago

Balance and sustainability are so important. Do you mind sharing the name/url of your SaaS business?

factsaresacred 7y ago
Click on his username: https://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=jasonkester https://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=jasonkester Many of his older comments about SaaS, freedom and business are gold.

bhldev 7y ago

This is a way. But you still focused on craft. You just took much longer to do it and in smaller chunks. Also you probably underestimate your own skill or have some perfect combination of skills to makeup for lack of focus. It's possible that for most people your way wouldn't work and the alternative way (putting in a lot of time) works better. Also at the start you could not have put in only 4 hours. You put in hundreds if not thousands of hours and only in maintenance mode do you go down to nothing. There's probably time you aren't counting either. All your life led up to that moment and all that. So I think you and people like you are the exception and saying what the OP says is much more realistic and widely applicable. It's simply not possible to get where you want to go without putting in time (talent luck market and perseeverence could lower time to near zero but that's the exception).

tonyarkles 7y ago

I find your comment exceptionally interesting, because I find it really easy to square what you’re saying and what the article is saying. A couple hypotheses that I’ve been chewing on for a few years now: - the “grow huge or go home” startup is one path, but not the only path. Looking around your own city will make it obvious that smaller profitable businesses that provide goods or services do exist in this world and are a perfectly reasonable way to make money. I, personally, am perfectly happy to be involved in a business that makes a consistent healthy profit, rather than being perpetually in the red, chasing hockey stick growth. - putting time/money into things that will pay consistent dividends is huge leverage. In your case, you put time into your product upfront and are now reaping those dividends. You don’t say explicitly whether you built it yourself or hired someone to do it, but either way... over a decade, you either invested time or money into it to turn it into a dividend-generating machine - in a lot of ways, the ultimate goal for a business is to turn into something that can continue to run without the owner/founder’s involvement at all. It may not get 100% there while the owner is still around, but if the business isn’t something that can eventually be sold and managed by someone else, it’s more a job than a business, and when the owner retires, the business disappears too. For me, your model of a lifestyle business is beautiful, but it’s significantly different than the 4 Hour Work Week model of a lifestyle business. Those two end up getting lumped together and depending on which model people are thinking about when they read “lifestyle business”, they have significantly different reactions. My own reactions: - “I spent 10 years building a SaaS product that makes me enough money to go rock climbing all the time”: AWESOME! Nicely done! That is fantastic! - “I spent a few months tracking down suppliers on AliExpress that can dropship cheap sunglasses. This makes enough money to go rock climbing all the time”: Urgh... well... hopefully that works out well for you long term I guess.