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Actually, my point was the opposite -- I was noting that software engineers dont make enough compared to doctors and deserve more given the major SWE downsides:

Actually, my point was the opposite -- I was noting that software engineers dont make enough compared to doctors and deserve more given the major SWE downsides: - SWE: Much of the premium might be CoL premium - SWE: There is a downward slope on earning potential - SWE: No cartel and constantly expanding pool of workers I'd argue that SWEs should make more given all these negative aspects.

kerkeslager 7y ago
Okay. It's not a really a point I care that much about, but I'd argue that this is a very SF/NYC-centric viewpoint. - SWE: Much of the premium might be CoL premium There are non-SF/NYC software jobs. Before I was a freelancer, I worked only one salary job in NYC. The rest of the time I worked and lived in much lower-CoL areas. And as a freelancer I work remote, getting paid NYC/SF money in a much cheaper place. - SWE: There is a downward slope on earning potential There may be a downward slope on earning potential, but that's in part because the SF/NYC markets bump you up pretty high pretty early, without much real justification. These places seem to fetishize the young hotshot "10x" programmer who is willing to work 70 hour weeks, but the reality is that that isn't sustainable, and the work done by kids isn't actually very high quality. That only works for a fail-fast startup model, but most companies outside the NYC/SF bubble aren't actually like that. There are plenty of old greybeard programmers working boring jobs at Dunder Mifflin-type companies in the Midwest, making wages increasing by 3% over inflation every year. Maybe they never peak as high as their SF/NYC counterparts, but they're still making more than a lot of other jobs in their areas. And the workloads of these jobs themselves are more sustainable. - SWE: No cartel and constantly expanding pool of workers There's also an expanding job market. Sure, there are cyclical downturns, but the overall trend is up. One thing that trips a lot of people up is a failure to specialize. If your job is writing Django/Angular apps, that only gets so difficult, and there's not really a reason to pay for someone with more experience beyond a certain point. But Django/Angular apps aren't the peak of software engineering--there are much more complex systems out there which actually do need someone with more experience. I see a lot of people hit the point where they can't progress further with LAMP/.NET/whatever-common-stack and get stuck instead of going back to school or finding a job that will teach them cryptography or networking or FPGA programming or whatever.

kerkeslager 7y ago

Okay. It's not a really a point I care that much about, but I'd argue that this is a very SF/NYC-centric viewpoint. - SWE: Much of the premium might be CoL premium There are non-SF/NYC software jobs. Before I was a freelancer, I worked only one salary job in NYC. The rest of the time I worked and lived in much lower-CoL areas. And as a freelancer I work remote, getting paid NYC/SF money in a much cheaper place. - SWE: There is a downward slope on earning potential There may be a downward slope on earning potential, but that's in part because the SF/NYC markets bump you up pretty high pretty early, without much real justification. These places seem to fetishize the young hotshot "10x" programmer who is willing to work 70 hour weeks, but the reality is that that isn't sustainable, and the work done by kids isn't actually very high quality. That only works for a fail-fast startup model, but most companies outside the NYC/SF bubble aren't actually like that. There are plenty of old greybeard programmers working boring jobs at Dunder Mifflin-type companies in the Midwest, making wages increasing by 3% over inflation every year. Maybe they never peak as high as their SF/NYC counterparts, but they're still making more than a lot of other jobs in their areas. And the workloads of these jobs themselves are more sustainable. - SWE: No cartel and constantly expanding pool of workers There's also an expanding job market. Sure, there are cyclical downturns, but the overall trend is up. One thing that trips a lot of people up is a failure to specialize. If your job is writing Django/Angular apps, that only gets so difficult, and there's not really a reason to pay for someone with more experience beyond a certain point. But Django/Angular apps aren't the peak of software engineering--there are much more complex systems out there which actually do need someone with more experience. I see a lot of people hit the point where they can't progress further with LAMP/.NET/whatever-common-stack and get stuck instead of going back to school or finding a job that will teach them cryptography or networking or FPGA programming or whatever.