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A mushy remixed translation already exists, by Stephen Mitchell. That being said, I was surprised by how many timeless themes are clearly present in the fragmen

A mushy remixed translation already exists, by Stephen Mitchell. That being said, I was surprised by how many timeless themes are clearly present in the fragmentary scholarly translations available. SPOILERS FOR THE OLDEST EXISTING LITERATURE: It's a story about a man trying to conquer monsters for the sake of timeless fame and glory, witnessing the death of his friend as a result of this quest, reflecting in his own mortality, trying to overcome death... and failing. There are other things going on with the story, the humor is repetitious and hard to embrace, and there are plenty of passages everyone is unsure about the meaning of, but this man-trying-to-overcome-mortality-and-failing theme is such a obviously human trope and it's clearly present in Gilgamesh. Compare and contrast to Ridley Scott's Prometheus.

jrumbut 7y ago
Every expert seems to look down on the Stephen Mitchell version. I happened to read and enjoy it, not as a scholar of the ancient near east but just as a text that happened to be in front of me. Is there a more detailed breakdown of what's wrong with it? I seem to only find generalities.
- blotter_paper 7y ago
  Yeah, I'm not claiming it's accurate, but what do you expect from a mushy modern version? I've read Mitchell's version, as well as couple different scholarly translations, but it's been years and I don't think I could cite specific differences besides cutting out most of the super repetitious parts (Babylonian comedians thought it was funny to say the same thing way too many times when describing a long journey) and filling in broken sections with words that worked well enough to continue the story. My memory of his Tao Te Ching "translation" is a bit better, and it's usually the one I recommend to people who have never read the Tao Te Ching just becauee it's worded so beautifully. He has some changes I really dislike, though; at one point he replaces a line about animals being like "straw dogs" (a sacrificial idol crushed under foot in a traditional ceremony) to the tao and people being like straw dogs to the master with a line that promotes pacifism, which is the change I hated most due to it actually seeming antithetical to what most scholars translate the passage as. He also replaces references to ancient weaponry with references to nuclear weapons, and stuff like that -- but I don't think he gave Gilgamesh an AK, as far as I recall ;)
  - blacksmith_tb 7y ago
    The "same thing way too many times" is common in most oral epics, it helps the teller to remember, and the audience to follow along. So you get formulaic things in Homer like "darkness covered his eyes" each time someone dies in battle, for example. Gilgamesh and Enkidu walking and walking to the forest to battle with Humbaba also helps drive home just how far away they went, which is to say, to some magical far-off land, another popular trope in plenty of stories.
    - smogcutter 7y ago
      The mechanics of oral poetic storytelling are super interesting. Stock tags like “darkness covered his eyes” are chosen by the poet because they have the correct number of syllables to finish the line. The poet would have a number of alternative phrases ready to fit the meter as needed. There’s even a theory that this mode of extemporaneous oral composition actually requires that the poet be illiterate. The thinking is that it’s a completely different, sound-first approach to language that literacy totally breaks. In order to compose fluently (not recite, the way we understand today), the poet has to understand a phrase like “darkness covered his eyes” as a discrete unit of meaning made up of syllables, not a composition of independent words.
      - deleted 7y ago
        [deleted]
      - colechristensen 7y ago
        It is almost like this kind of oral poetry is its own separate kind of "literacy" separate from being able to write and being able to speak conversationally. Definitely a different set of words and skills.
        smogcutter 7y ago
        Yeah, that’s a really good way to put it. I don’t ha e the background to speak on whether the “illiterate bard” theory is actually true, but I find the idea that some kinds of literacy could be mutually exclusive totally fascinating.
Torwald 7y ago
> the humor is repetitious and hard to embrace the world's oldest joke - a Sumerian rib-tickler dating back to 1,900 BC which goes: "Something which has never occurred since time immemorial; a young woman did not fart in her husband's lap." https://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/08/01/oldest_joke/ https://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/08/01/oldest_joke/ Explain ancient humor to me. I am all for embracing it.
- mcguire 7y ago
  The Greeks had some rather sarcastic humor in various plays. The Egyptians had no sense of humor, neither did the Romans. But the Sumerians are funny. http://etcsl.orinst.ox.ac.uk/section5/tr551.htm http://etcsl.orinst.ox.ac.uk/section5/tr551.htm
  - wl 7y ago
    The ancient Egyptians had a sense of humor. The problem is that ancient Egyptian literature is usually only read by people who are learning the Egyptian language. Wenamun is a comedy of errors. Setne Khamwas contains slapstick. Hathor's rampage across the earth in the form of Sekemet is ended with massive quantities of beer dyed red.
  - riffraff 7y ago
    talking of greeks, it seems worth mentioning laconic humor. The "if"[0] thing is still funny after centuries, imo. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laconic_phrase#Uses https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laconic_phrase#Uses
    - mcguire 7y ago
      "Nuts."
  - virtualritz 7y ago
    How do we know the Egyptians or the Romans had no sense of humor? A lacking written record proves only that: a lacking written record. Can you imagine a society w/o laughter?

jrumbut 7y ago

Every expert seems to look down on the Stephen Mitchell version. I happened to read and enjoy it, not as a scholar of the ancient near east but just as a text that happened to be in front of me. Is there a more detailed breakdown of what's wrong with it? I seem to only find generalities.

blotter_paper 7y ago
Yeah, I'm not claiming it's accurate, but what do you expect from a mushy modern version? I've read Mitchell's version, as well as couple different scholarly translations, but it's been years and I don't think I could cite specific differences besides cutting out most of the super repetitious parts (Babylonian comedians thought it was funny to say the same thing way too many times when describing a long journey) and filling in broken sections with words that worked well enough to continue the story. My memory of his Tao Te Ching "translation" is a bit better, and it's usually the one I recommend to people who have never read the Tao Te Ching just becauee it's worded so beautifully. He has some changes I really dislike, though; at one point he replaces a line about animals being like "straw dogs" (a sacrificial idol crushed under foot in a traditional ceremony) to the tao and people being like straw dogs to the master with a line that promotes pacifism, which is the change I hated most due to it actually seeming antithetical to what most scholars translate the passage as. He also replaces references to ancient weaponry with references to nuclear weapons, and stuff like that -- but I don't think he gave Gilgamesh an AK, as far as I recall ;)
- blacksmith_tb 7y ago
  The "same thing way too many times" is common in most oral epics, it helps the teller to remember, and the audience to follow along. So you get formulaic things in Homer like "darkness covered his eyes" each time someone dies in battle, for example. Gilgamesh and Enkidu walking and walking to the forest to battle with Humbaba also helps drive home just how far away they went, which is to say, to some magical far-off land, another popular trope in plenty of stories.
  - smogcutter 7y ago
    The mechanics of oral poetic storytelling are super interesting. Stock tags like “darkness covered his eyes” are chosen by the poet because they have the correct number of syllables to finish the line. The poet would have a number of alternative phrases ready to fit the meter as needed. There’s even a theory that this mode of extemporaneous oral composition actually requires that the poet be illiterate. The thinking is that it’s a completely different, sound-first approach to language that literacy totally breaks. In order to compose fluently (not recite, the way we understand today), the poet has to understand a phrase like “darkness covered his eyes” as a discrete unit of meaning made up of syllables, not a composition of independent words.
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
    - colechristensen 7y ago
      It is almost like this kind of oral poetry is its own separate kind of "literacy" separate from being able to write and being able to speak conversationally. Definitely a different set of words and skills.
      - smogcutter 7y ago
        Yeah, that’s a really good way to put it. I don’t ha e the background to speak on whether the “illiterate bard” theory is actually true, but I find the idea that some kinds of literacy could be mutually exclusive totally fascinating.

Torwald 7y ago

> the humor is repetitious and hard to embrace the world's oldest joke - a Sumerian rib-tickler dating back to 1,900 BC which goes: "Something which has never occurred since time immemorial; a young woman did not fart in her husband's lap." https://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/08/01/oldest_joke/ https://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/08/01/oldest_joke/ Explain ancient humor to me. I am all for embracing it.

mcguire 7y ago
The Greeks had some rather sarcastic humor in various plays. The Egyptians had no sense of humor, neither did the Romans. But the Sumerians are funny. http://etcsl.orinst.ox.ac.uk/section5/tr551.htm http://etcsl.orinst.ox.ac.uk/section5/tr551.htm
- wl 7y ago
  The ancient Egyptians had a sense of humor. The problem is that ancient Egyptian literature is usually only read by people who are learning the Egyptian language. Wenamun is a comedy of errors. Setne Khamwas contains slapstick. Hathor's rampage across the earth in the form of Sekemet is ended with massive quantities of beer dyed red.
- riffraff 7y ago
  talking of greeks, it seems worth mentioning laconic humor. The "if"[0] thing is still funny after centuries, imo. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laconic_phrase#Uses https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laconic_phrase#Uses
  - mcguire 7y ago
    "Nuts."
- virtualritz 7y ago
  How do we know the Egyptians or the Romans had no sense of humor? A lacking written record proves only that: a lacking written record. Can you imagine a society w/o laughter?