5 ms·

Ballmer to Hu: 90% of Microsoft customers in China using pirated software

20 points by mjfern 16y ago

eddanger 16y ago
Hu to Ballmer: Ha ha! Could it be MS is estimating the Windows install base is much larger than it really is?
- kongqiu 16y ago
  Wow, I had the exact same thought: "Hu smiles -- 'yes, and...?'"
ikuygtyuiouy 16y ago
I thought this had always been a MSFT business plan? Given that very few people in china are going to spend a years salary on a full copy of MS Office the alternatives are: 1, They develop their own local software 2, They adopt and localize some open source software 3, They pirate your software making you a defacto standard Which would you prefer - long term?
- pyre 16y ago
  They can't say that outright though. They have to pretend to want piracy to end in China, even if that's not the case. They probably know that there's little that will be done to stem the issue, at least at the present time.
  - ikuygtyuiouy 16y ago
    If I were the chinese I wouldn't be able to resist the temptation to say - "you're right we will introduce the death penalty for software piracy, ban the sale of imported software at below US list price - and we will put 100,000 programmers on a plan to produce OpenOffice for the people"
    - moondowner 16y ago
      Actually, there's a Chinese fork of OpenOffice.org, it's called RedOffice. It also has a pretty good interface! review: http://www.johannes-eva.net/redoffice-review http://www.johannes-eva.net/redoffice-review official site: http://www.redoffice.com/ http://www.redoffice.com/
      - ikuygtyuiouy 16y ago
        I wonder what MS is offering in 'consultancy fees' to some government officials for that not to become a mandated standard?
stretchwithme 16y ago
Why don't they make their most valuable features only work if a valid license was shown to a server within the last week? Seems like there's no way Google Apps could have unauthorized users precisely because you do need to login to their servers. There advantages to having Office installed locally, but surely this is a big enough problem to change how things work. 90% is a lot.
- Roboprog 16y ago
  I'm sure somebody within the 1 billion people there in China could crack whatever protection they put on. Maybe even on day 1 :-)
  - electromagnetic 16y ago
    Even still, assuming ludicrous 100% market penetration in the US and China. Microsoft would still be making 1/3 in China that it is in the US (assuming 0% piracy in the US). I don't know a single person who has legal copies of Office or Photoshop that didn't come free and I've lived in the UK and live in Canada. What MSFT has done in the Western world is to ensure that companies (who can afford to pay) can't have pirated copies. Essentially this is because corporations can be sued at the drop of an envelope. I somehow don't think China has the ease in filing suits for small amounts against companies.
    - wisty 16y ago
      Chinese lawsuits are said to be quicker, more document focused, and less witness-testimony focused than US suits. Downsides? Not as much discovery (don't expect the court to force the company to do a software audit), and low damage (think money back, but no outrage). No, I'm not a lawyer, and this isn't advice.
- codingthewheel 16y ago
  There's no security on the client side often even when you connect that client to a server. Think of a world in which, instead of shipping binary executable code to users, we shipped them full source code. They'd be able to go in and selectively edit out the "licensing" stuff, remove the lines where the app dials home, etc. This is actually the world we live in, but we call this source code "executable code". Now we pretend that executable code is "obfuscated" or "cryptic" or "difficult to understand" but that's just so we can keep our sanity. Executable code is transparently open, well documented, and perfectly editable on any major OS, including Win and *nix, regardless of what sort of checksums or digital signing you do to ensure local files haven't been changed, all the security experts in the world can't put Humpty Dumpty back together on the client side, or keep him from shattering to a million pieces in the first place.
Kilimanjaro 16y ago
Given two super powers, one infested with patents and IP laws that limit progress, the other one with zero patent laws where everybody can further develop the work of others, which one do you think will progress faster? If I was the chinese president I would be flipping the bird to the cameras with a smile in my face.
kmfrk 16y ago
Related: Previously, on Hacker News: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1594521 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1594521
wyclif 16y ago
Similar situation in the Philippines. All the Filipino developers I know learned their craft with pirated copies of MSFT software.
sandGorgon 16y ago
So is the case with most asian countries. So I asked around - why arent you using Libreoffice ? 1. Most cases - excel support is lacking. Yup, they did google for "cheap office" and try out OpenOffice. 2. Local language support - nobody really has it. But Windows (not just Office) has nicer ways to find and install fonts. Oh and the name "libreoffice" is REALLY, REALLY not working out in Asia. Even for english speaking ones. <begin rant> Asiatic scripts (especially China and India) need smart fonts - http://www.linux.com/archive/feed/52884 http://www.linux.com/archive/feed/52884 However, the default font technology in most open source stacks is Harfbuzz and not SIL Graphite. The attitude towards graphite can be summarized thus (http://behdad.org/text/ http://behdad.org/text/): This allows for developing fonts for minority scripts and languages without having to update the engine first. For established scripts though, there is not much reason to prefer Graphite over OpenType. And by minority scripts we mean 1/5th of the world's population, the two fastest growing economies and open source friendly governments. </end rant>
- burgerbrain 16y ago
  "Oh and the name "libreoffice" is REALLY, REALLY not working out in Asia. Even for english speaking ones." Huh, why in the world not? Is is a problem of limited vocabulary? Your double emphasis on 'really' makes it seem like they know what it means, but are actually opposed to the concept, is that it? This is just kind of a pretty weird comment without some supporting explanation.
  - sandGorgon 16y ago
    It's not a question of understanding the meaning of "libre". Its about the pronounciation. I used to be able to tell people to go and download "Open Office" and they remember. Phonetically, if you use "Librii Office" - they dont. "Libr Office" they dont. I am not sure why - but I have spoken to dozens in India (accountants, lawyers, etc.) and the name just doesnt have recall. Libre also is not a Commonwealth English word. I'm sure everyone came up with that name with a noble intent - but it simply isnt working in India which is extremely Anglicized as compared to most other Asian countries. That name really needs to change. On a curious note - in the U.S. have you spoken to a non-geek, say your pizza delivery dude, and have brand recall of "Libreoffice" ?
alexanderswang 16y ago
Actually it's more than 99%.
klbarry 16y ago
A little off topic, but now I'm very interested: How does Google docs make money? I don't recall ever being targeted for an ad by the content, and obviously regular users don't pay.
- anonymous246 16y ago
  Business users pay $50/seat/year after the 100th user. That's how they make money. Btw, Microsoft is similar. I bet that legit sales to individuals are tiny compared to corporate sales.
  - pasbesoin 16y ago
    It's $50/seat/year, no matter how many users. The "Standard" version (they've renamed it to something else, now) has lower quotas and no (non-bulletin board) support. It also now has a cap of 50 seats (used to be higher). For a while, you could only do video hosting and some other things on the business/"Premier" plan; not sure about now. Academic/non-profit is "free", but you have to prove your status somehow. I still argue it's a bargain for the "average" business, compared to trying to host and manage this stuff yourself. I don't know how good the support is, though -- the rest of Google's individual / customer level support leaves me rather doubtful. I also don't know what happens when the subpoenas start flying. If they ever establish HIPAA compliance/certification (I don't know whether it is worth their while), they may get a "bazillion" health care providers. Especially if that "whatever is currently their health records management offer" thing works out. But that would put them in the middle, as the records holder, of an awful lot of litigation. From that perspective, it might be a real loser for them. (Maybe the lobbyists are already working on this vis à vis some favorable legislation.)
    - anonymous246 16y ago
      Hmm, ok. I just assumed that the Google Apps for Domains that I use for my personal domain could be used by for-profits too.
      - 16y ago
pb-add 16y ago
One more price differential "Western" workers are working against. I recall when India was starting up its external-facing tech industry. There were a few conversations about how one way they kept costs down was by not paying for any software licenses. I found and find it ironic, that the same companies that are so gung ho about IP rights in the "West", were (and are) perfectly willing to take advantage of their disregard when seeking lower prices by farming work out to "developing economies". At this point, I respect IP inasmuch as it can break me financially or maybe get me thrown in the pokey. Morally, though? I'll make my decisions on an individual basis, but I find I have no respect nor regard for a great deal of claimed rights. The claimants are bald faced hypocrites.
dgroves 16y ago
Yes, because the Chinese are way to smart to pay for the crap that Microsoft produces.

20 points by mjfern 16y ago

eddanger 16y ago

Hu to Ballmer: Ha ha! Could it be MS is estimating the Windows install base is much larger than it really is?

kongqiu 16y ago
Wow, I had the exact same thought: "Hu smiles -- 'yes, and...?'"

ikuygtyuiouy 16y ago

I thought this had always been a MSFT business plan? Given that very few people in china are going to spend a years salary on a full copy of MS Office the alternatives are: 1, They develop their own local software 2, They adopt and localize some open source software 3, They pirate your software making you a defacto standard Which would you prefer - long term?

pyre 16y ago
They can't say that outright though. They have to pretend to want piracy to end in China, even if that's not the case. They probably know that there's little that will be done to stem the issue, at least at the present time.
- ikuygtyuiouy 16y ago
  If I were the chinese I wouldn't be able to resist the temptation to say - "you're right we will introduce the death penalty for software piracy, ban the sale of imported software at below US list price - and we will put 100,000 programmers on a plan to produce OpenOffice for the people"
  - moondowner 16y ago
    Actually, there's a Chinese fork of OpenOffice.org, it's called RedOffice. It also has a pretty good interface! review: http://www.johannes-eva.net/redoffice-review http://www.johannes-eva.net/redoffice-review official site: http://www.redoffice.com/ http://www.redoffice.com/
    - ikuygtyuiouy 16y ago
      I wonder what MS is offering in 'consultancy fees' to some government officials for that not to become a mandated standard?

stretchwithme 16y ago

Why don't they make their most valuable features only work if a valid license was shown to a server within the last week? Seems like there's no way Google Apps could have unauthorized users precisely because you do need to login to their servers. There advantages to having Office installed locally, but surely this is a big enough problem to change how things work. 90% is a lot.

Roboprog 16y ago
I'm sure somebody within the 1 billion people there in China could crack whatever protection they put on. Maybe even on day 1 :-)
- electromagnetic 16y ago
  Even still, assuming ludicrous 100% market penetration in the US and China. Microsoft would still be making 1/3 in China that it is in the US (assuming 0% piracy in the US). I don't know a single person who has legal copies of Office or Photoshop that didn't come free and I've lived in the UK and live in Canada. What MSFT has done in the Western world is to ensure that companies (who can afford to pay) can't have pirated copies. Essentially this is because corporations can be sued at the drop of an envelope. I somehow don't think China has the ease in filing suits for small amounts against companies.
  - wisty 16y ago
    Chinese lawsuits are said to be quicker, more document focused, and less witness-testimony focused than US suits. Downsides? Not as much discovery (don't expect the court to force the company to do a software audit), and low damage (think money back, but no outrage). No, I'm not a lawyer, and this isn't advice.
codingthewheel 16y ago
There's no security on the client side often even when you connect that client to a server. Think of a world in which, instead of shipping binary executable code to users, we shipped them full source code. They'd be able to go in and selectively edit out the "licensing" stuff, remove the lines where the app dials home, etc. This is actually the world we live in, but we call this source code "executable code". Now we pretend that executable code is "obfuscated" or "cryptic" or "difficult to understand" but that's just so we can keep our sanity. Executable code is transparently open, well documented, and perfectly editable on any major OS, including Win and *nix, regardless of what sort of checksums or digital signing you do to ensure local files haven't been changed, all the security experts in the world can't put Humpty Dumpty back together on the client side, or keep him from shattering to a million pieces in the first place.

Kilimanjaro 16y ago

Given two super powers, one infested with patents and IP laws that limit progress, the other one with zero patent laws where everybody can further develop the work of others, which one do you think will progress faster? If I was the chinese president I would be flipping the bird to the cameras with a smile in my face.

kmfrk 16y ago

Related: Previously, on Hacker News: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1594521 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1594521

wyclif 16y ago

Similar situation in the Philippines. All the Filipino developers I know learned their craft with pirated copies of MSFT software.

sandGorgon 16y ago

So is the case with most asian countries. So I asked around - why arent you using Libreoffice ? 1. Most cases - excel support is lacking. Yup, they did google for "cheap office" and try out OpenOffice. 2. Local language support - nobody really has it. But Windows (not just Office) has nicer ways to find and install fonts. Oh and the name "libreoffice" is REALLY, REALLY not working out in Asia. Even for english speaking ones. <begin rant> Asiatic scripts (especially China and India) need smart fonts - http://www.linux.com/archive/feed/52884 http://www.linux.com/archive/feed/52884 However, the default font technology in most open source stacks is Harfbuzz and not SIL Graphite. The attitude towards graphite can be summarized thus (http://behdad.org/text/ http://behdad.org/text/): This allows for developing fonts for minority scripts and languages without having to update the engine first. For established scripts though, there is not much reason to prefer Graphite over OpenType. And by minority scripts we mean 1/5th of the world's population, the two fastest growing economies and open source friendly governments. </end rant>

burgerbrain 16y ago
"Oh and the name "libreoffice" is REALLY, REALLY not working out in Asia. Even for english speaking ones." Huh, why in the world not? Is is a problem of limited vocabulary? Your double emphasis on 'really' makes it seem like they know what it means, but are actually opposed to the concept, is that it? This is just kind of a pretty weird comment without some supporting explanation.
- sandGorgon 16y ago
  It's not a question of understanding the meaning of "libre". Its about the pronounciation. I used to be able to tell people to go and download "Open Office" and they remember. Phonetically, if you use "Librii Office" - they dont. "Libr Office" they dont. I am not sure why - but I have spoken to dozens in India (accountants, lawyers, etc.) and the name just doesnt have recall. Libre also is not a Commonwealth English word. I'm sure everyone came up with that name with a noble intent - but it simply isnt working in India which is extremely Anglicized as compared to most other Asian countries. That name really needs to change. On a curious note - in the U.S. have you spoken to a non-geek, say your pizza delivery dude, and have brand recall of "Libreoffice" ?

alexanderswang 16y ago

Actually it's more than 99%.

klbarry 16y ago

A little off topic, but now I'm very interested: How does Google docs make money? I don't recall ever being targeted for an ad by the content, and obviously regular users don't pay.

anonymous246 16y ago
Business users pay $50/seat/year after the 100th user. That's how they make money. Btw, Microsoft is similar. I bet that legit sales to individuals are tiny compared to corporate sales.
- pasbesoin 16y ago
  It's $50/seat/year, no matter how many users. The "Standard" version (they've renamed it to something else, now) has lower quotas and no (non-bulletin board) support. It also now has a cap of 50 seats (used to be higher). For a while, you could only do video hosting and some other things on the business/"Premier" plan; not sure about now. Academic/non-profit is "free", but you have to prove your status somehow. I still argue it's a bargain for the "average" business, compared to trying to host and manage this stuff yourself. I don't know how good the support is, though -- the rest of Google's individual / customer level support leaves me rather doubtful. I also don't know what happens when the subpoenas start flying. If they ever establish HIPAA compliance/certification (I don't know whether it is worth their while), they may get a "bazillion" health care providers. Especially if that "whatever is currently their health records management offer" thing works out. But that would put them in the middle, as the records holder, of an awful lot of litigation. From that perspective, it might be a real loser for them. (Maybe the lobbyists are already working on this vis à vis some favorable legislation.)
  - anonymous246 16y ago
    Hmm, ok. I just assumed that the Google Apps for Domains that I use for my personal domain could be used by for-profits too.
    - 16y ago

pb-add 16y ago

One more price differential "Western" workers are working against. I recall when India was starting up its external-facing tech industry. There were a few conversations about how one way they kept costs down was by not paying for any software licenses. I found and find it ironic, that the same companies that are so gung ho about IP rights in the "West", were (and are) perfectly willing to take advantage of their disregard when seeking lower prices by farming work out to "developing economies". At this point, I respect IP inasmuch as it can break me financially or maybe get me thrown in the pokey. Morally, though? I'll make my decisions on an individual basis, but I find I have no respect nor regard for a great deal of claimed rights. The claimants are bald faced hypocrites.

dgroves 16y ago

Yes, because the Chinese are way to smart to pay for the crap that Microsoft produces.