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Meanwhile heads rolled at VW for something similar.

by r00fus 7y ago

nerpderp82 7y ago
Germans generally hold their leaders to a higher standard as well as everyone generally respecting norms. Ignoring norms is a defining quality of Americans.
- jacquesm 7y ago
  Such generalizations do not help, and one need only to look to history to know that this isn't true in the least. Lining up all Germans against all Americans is the kind of silly stuff that leads to confrontation, recognizing that all of these are individuals and that both on the German and on the American side there are plenty of good individuals that do care is a first step towards a solution. You can then decide on a plan to ensure that those make it to the front of the line on both sides of the Atlantic.
- mschuster91 7y ago
  Oh hell no we don't. There have been no real consequences for the Dieselgate. The infrastructure minister Scheuer is still in office after: - botching an Autobahn toll exposing the state to 500M € liabilities to the private companies that should have implemented it - (together with his predecessors) not giving a flying fuck about broadband internet outside of cities and LTE access being one of the most expensive in Europe - STILL continuing to fuck up the Deutsche Bahn railway Former scandal-ridden army minister Ursula von der Leyen got promoted to EU commission chief despite having utterly failed to clean up the shitshow that is the German Army. Interior Minister Reul (NRW) is still in office despite ordering illegal raids in the Hambach forest, a colossal police fuck-up during the investigation of pedophiles in Lügde, police beating up a Jew in Bonn and a load of other scandals. Interior minister Seehofer (federal) is still in office despite nearly bringing the federal government to collapse multiple times, undermining Merkel's authority and doing everything he could to keep a Nazi-protecting Hans-Georg Maaßen as head of one of the secret service branches. So tell me, where do we Germans keep our leaders to higher standards?
  - FabHK 7y ago
    Not to mention Berlin Brandenburg Airport (BER) - construction started in 2006, but it’s still not ready.
    - mschuster91 7y ago
      Oh yeah, but heads did roll for that clusterfuck. And unlike most problems in Germany this one isn't just restricted to the Conservatives, literally everyone had their fair share of contributing to it.
bumby 7y ago
I don't think these are comparable except that both are related to cultural issues. Boeing seems to be short-cutting processes on safety-critical code. VW was related to gaming a system for environmental compliance. While bad and a breach of trust, it doesn't carry the same immediate threat as safety critical code.
- r00fus 7y ago
  Well from a stochastic standpoint, it's highly possible VW's cheating has caused more hurt (asthma deaths, pollution) than Boeing's negligent design. And that's ignoring VW's malfeasance impacts on climate change over a decade.
  - bumby 7y ago
    I understand your point, but that's why I put immediate in my comment. Boeing can be directly linked to the deaths of 346 people in this case. VW is at least a few degrees removed and likely a contributor but not the sole actor in any deaths related to climate change.
  - Glawen 7y ago
    It's going to be difficult to prove that VW cheating led to asthma deaths and pollution. It's easy to say that VW is the root of all evil, but the most popular vehicles sold in the US are pickup trucks, which have a diesel engine variant. But pickup truck are not classified as cars, so their emissions were complying to the higher truck limits of 0.4g/mile of nox, unlike VW which was supposed to comply to the stringent car limits of 0.07g/mile. And of course they found that cummins diesels also cheated (less blatantly). And anyway, the US is still the biggest contributor on earth of air pollution, and I doubt that it comes from the few VW vehicles sold there
    - bumby 7y ago
      This is an interesting point, but I need to dig more on it. On the surface, trucks significantly outpaced car sales in the U.S. [0]. But there's some added nuance needed. Only 13% or so of trucks are diesels [1] and the sales numbers include SUVs as trucks. I personally don't know of a single person (or model for that matter, although I'm sure they exist) who drives a diesel SUV. The numbers are further complicated because SUVs used to be classified as station wagons in the U.S. U.S. emission laws used to heavily favor gasoline vehicles vs. diesel although I think this gap has narrowed recently. I believe the converse is true in Europe which is why there is a disparity between the regions in terms of diesel usage [0] https://www.statista.com/statistics/199981/us-car-and-truck-sales-since-1951/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/199981/us-car-and-truck-... [1] https://news.pickuptrucks.com/2018/09/diesel-pickup-sales-are-revving-up-study.html https://news.pickuptrucks.com/2018/09/diesel-pickup-sales-ar...
saimiam 7y ago
I think what VW did with dieselgate is much worse considering how (a) they willfully effed up the environment (b) actively sought to cheat the very entities i.e. emissions testing facilities, set up to regulate them (c) the scale and sheer assholeishness of their cheating and the cherry on top (d) pretending that "clean diesel" is a thing. Pollution's effects are cumulative (as per whatever I've read online as a layperson) while a plane crash is more visceral and scary but personally, I think the dieselgate scandal has left me mistrusting any subsdiary owned or any initiative launched by VW.

Meanwhile heads rolled at VW for something similar.

by r00fus 7y ago

Meanwhile heads rolled at VW for something similar.

Germans generally hold their leaders to a higher standard as well as everyone generally respecting norms. Ignoring norms is a defining quality of Americans.

jacquesm 7y ago
Such generalizations do not help, and one need only to look to history to know that this isn't true in the least. Lining up all Germans against all Americans is the kind of silly stuff that leads to confrontation, recognizing that all of these are individuals and that both on the German and on the American side there are plenty of good individuals that do care is a first step towards a solution. You can then decide on a plan to ensure that those make it to the front of the line on both sides of the Atlantic.
mschuster91 7y ago
Oh hell no we don't. There have been no real consequences for the Dieselgate. The infrastructure minister Scheuer is still in office after: - botching an Autobahn toll exposing the state to 500M € liabilities to the private companies that should have implemented it - (together with his predecessors) not giving a flying fuck about broadband internet outside of cities and LTE access being one of the most expensive in Europe - STILL continuing to fuck up the Deutsche Bahn railway Former scandal-ridden army minister Ursula von der Leyen got promoted to EU commission chief despite having utterly failed to clean up the shitshow that is the German Army. Interior Minister Reul (NRW) is still in office despite ordering illegal raids in the Hambach forest, a colossal police fuck-up during the investigation of pedophiles in Lügde, police beating up a Jew in Bonn and a load of other scandals. Interior minister Seehofer (federal) is still in office despite nearly bringing the federal government to collapse multiple times, undermining Merkel's authority and doing everything he could to keep a Nazi-protecting Hans-Georg Maaßen as head of one of the secret service branches. So tell me, where do we Germans keep our leaders to higher standards?
- FabHK 7y ago
  Not to mention Berlin Brandenburg Airport (BER) - construction started in 2006, but it’s still not ready.
  - mschuster91 7y ago
    Oh yeah, but heads did roll for that clusterfuck. And unlike most problems in Germany this one isn't just restricted to the Conservatives, literally everyone had their fair share of contributing to it.

bumby 7y ago

I don't think these are comparable except that both are related to cultural issues. Boeing seems to be short-cutting processes on safety-critical code. VW was related to gaming a system for environmental compliance. While bad and a breach of trust, it doesn't carry the same immediate threat as safety critical code.

r00fus 7y ago
Well from a stochastic standpoint, it's highly possible VW's cheating has caused more hurt (asthma deaths, pollution) than Boeing's negligent design. And that's ignoring VW's malfeasance impacts on climate change over a decade.
- bumby 7y ago
  I understand your point, but that's why I put immediate in my comment. Boeing can be directly linked to the deaths of 346 people in this case. VW is at least a few degrees removed and likely a contributor but not the sole actor in any deaths related to climate change.
- Glawen 7y ago
  It's going to be difficult to prove that VW cheating led to asthma deaths and pollution. It's easy to say that VW is the root of all evil, but the most popular vehicles sold in the US are pickup trucks, which have a diesel engine variant. But pickup truck are not classified as cars, so their emissions were complying to the higher truck limits of 0.4g/mile of nox, unlike VW which was supposed to comply to the stringent car limits of 0.07g/mile. And of course they found that cummins diesels also cheated (less blatantly). And anyway, the US is still the biggest contributor on earth of air pollution, and I doubt that it comes from the few VW vehicles sold there
  - bumby 7y ago
    This is an interesting point, but I need to dig more on it. On the surface, trucks significantly outpaced car sales in the U.S. [0]. But there's some added nuance needed. Only 13% or so of trucks are diesels [1] and the sales numbers include SUVs as trucks. I personally don't know of a single person (or model for that matter, although I'm sure they exist) who drives a diesel SUV. The numbers are further complicated because SUVs used to be classified as station wagons in the U.S. U.S. emission laws used to heavily favor gasoline vehicles vs. diesel although I think this gap has narrowed recently. I believe the converse is true in Europe which is why there is a disparity between the regions in terms of diesel usage [0] https://www.statista.com/statistics/199981/us-car-and-truck-sales-since-1951/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/199981/us-car-and-truck-... [1] https://news.pickuptrucks.com/2018/09/diesel-pickup-sales-are-revving-up-study.html https://news.pickuptrucks.com/2018/09/diesel-pickup-sales-ar...

saimiam 7y ago

I think what VW did with dieselgate is much worse considering how (a) they willfully effed up the environment (b) actively sought to cheat the very entities i.e. emissions testing facilities, set up to regulate them (c) the scale and sheer assholeishness of their cheating and the cherry on top (d) pretending that "clean diesel" is a thing. Pollution's effects are cumulative (as per whatever I've read online as a layperson) while a plane crash is more visceral and scary but personally, I think the dieselgate scandal has left me mistrusting any subsdiary owned or any initiative launched by VW.