5 ms·

Prison: our solution to every problem.

by nostromo 7y ago

davidw 7y ago
IDK, it's overused in the US, but a lot of people died too and that's... pretty bad?
- miracle2k 7y ago
  Sometimes people die and there is no one to blame. The tendency to find a scapegoat is strong and human and needs to be resisted. Maybe someone should go to jail here, but I doubt it.
  - TheOtherHobbes 7y ago
    The legal definition of culpable negligence is actually pretty straightforward. I see no reason not to hold key decision-makers responsible for the consequences of decisions that aren't just misguided or incorrect, but actively and wilfully negligent of factual information - especially if they cause even more deaths by attempting to suppress that information and place blame on innocent parties.
jacquesm 7y ago
I'm normally against prison as a deterrent because it is used against people where it wouldn't work as a deterrent. In cases such as these it might actually work if the execs of such companies were simply jailed for a very long time as though they were about equally responsible as a regular bus driver would be if they were negligent at their job and killed a bunch of people. It just might have a positive effect the next time someone thinks they might get away with cutting some corners.
- WJW 7y ago
  I would support this sentiment usually, but in this case I don't really see a way to determine the chain of responsibility. Who do we force into prison in this scenario? The engineer(s) who made MCAS? Just the one that wrote the lines of code that monitor the airflow sensors? Do we also imprison the QA people that signed off on this? Why not also their managers? Who of the C-suite? Probably the CTO and maybe the CEO, but isn't their behavior influenced by financial pressures from the CFO. Maybe we should just put them all into jail? The FAA was supposed to monitor this stuff but didn't. Should they be jailed as well? How about any congress people that cut the budget for the FAA? The list goes on. There are negative modifiers as well: what if the person who made MCAS was a very junior engineer in his/her first week? Are they still culpable? What if the CTO can prove they were never involved? I don't think it's all that easy who is responsible.
  - jacquesm 7y ago
    It's super simple: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buck_passing#%22The_buck_stops_here%22 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buck_passing#%22The_buck_stops... If the CEO's are held responsible for the deeds of the companies they lead you can bet that there would be an instant improvement of corporate accountability.
    - WalterBright 7y ago
      You'd also get no new airplane designs.
      - jacquesm 7y ago
        That may be preferable to broken ones, but no I don't think that will be the outcome. The outcome will be that companies will still follow the money and that executives will make it very plain that we're all playing by the same set of rules. Rules without accountability and enforcement are meaningless.
        WalterBright 7y ago
        Charging people with crimes means they'll go to great lengths to cover it up, instead of fixing it. The aviation system is as safe as it is because the people involved don't get prosecuted for making mistakes. Standing over people with a sword is not going to get you any risk taking. All aviation improvement, including safety improvements, will come to a dead stop.
        jacquesm 7y ago
        > because the people involved don't get prosecuted for making mistakes. And they shouldn't be. But there is a very large difference between 'mistakes' and 'intentionally circumventing processes put in place to ensure safety'. Having to draw lines is always difficult, but in this case the line has been crossed. Consider what Martha Stewart went to jail for, then compare to what happened here. If justice is to be observed as even handed there ought to be some serious consequences here, not some already rich guys getting richer with their golden parachutes, the irony of which I'm sure will not be lost on the relatives of the people who died.
- Haga 7y ago
  Prison is the only fine that hits all citizens equally

Prison: our solution to every problem.

davidw 7y ago

IDK, it's overused in the US, but a lot of people died too and that's... pretty bad?

miracle2k 7y ago
Sometimes people die and there is no one to blame. The tendency to find a scapegoat is strong and human and needs to be resisted. Maybe someone should go to jail here, but I doubt it.
- TheOtherHobbes 7y ago
  The legal definition of culpable negligence is actually pretty straightforward. I see no reason not to hold key decision-makers responsible for the consequences of decisions that aren't just misguided or incorrect, but actively and wilfully negligent of factual information - especially if they cause even more deaths by attempting to suppress that information and place blame on innocent parties.

jacquesm 7y ago

I'm normally against prison as a deterrent because it is used against people where it wouldn't work as a deterrent. In cases such as these it might actually work if the execs of such companies were simply jailed for a very long time as though they were about equally responsible as a regular bus driver would be if they were negligent at their job and killed a bunch of people. It just might have a positive effect the next time someone thinks they might get away with cutting some corners.

WJW 7y ago
I would support this sentiment usually, but in this case I don't really see a way to determine the chain of responsibility. Who do we force into prison in this scenario? The engineer(s) who made MCAS? Just the one that wrote the lines of code that monitor the airflow sensors? Do we also imprison the QA people that signed off on this? Why not also their managers? Who of the C-suite? Probably the CTO and maybe the CEO, but isn't their behavior influenced by financial pressures from the CFO. Maybe we should just put them all into jail? The FAA was supposed to monitor this stuff but didn't. Should they be jailed as well? How about any congress people that cut the budget for the FAA? The list goes on. There are negative modifiers as well: what if the person who made MCAS was a very junior engineer in his/her first week? Are they still culpable? What if the CTO can prove they were never involved? I don't think it's all that easy who is responsible.
- jacquesm 7y ago
  It's super simple: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buck_passing#%22The_buck_stops_here%22 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buck_passing#%22The_buck_stops... If the CEO's are held responsible for the deeds of the companies they lead you can bet that there would be an instant improvement of corporate accountability.
  - WalterBright 7y ago
    You'd also get no new airplane designs.
    - jacquesm 7y ago
      That may be preferable to broken ones, but no I don't think that will be the outcome. The outcome will be that companies will still follow the money and that executives will make it very plain that we're all playing by the same set of rules. Rules without accountability and enforcement are meaningless.
      - WalterBright 7y ago
        Charging people with crimes means they'll go to great lengths to cover it up, instead of fixing it. The aviation system is as safe as it is because the people involved don't get prosecuted for making mistakes. Standing over people with a sword is not going to get you any risk taking. All aviation improvement, including safety improvements, will come to a dead stop.
        jacquesm 7y ago
        > because the people involved don't get prosecuted for making mistakes. And they shouldn't be. But there is a very large difference between 'mistakes' and 'intentionally circumventing processes put in place to ensure safety'. Having to draw lines is always difficult, but in this case the line has been crossed. Consider what Martha Stewart went to jail for, then compare to what happened here. If justice is to be observed as even handed there ought to be some serious consequences here, not some already rich guys getting richer with their golden parachutes, the irony of which I'm sure will not be lost on the relatives of the people who died.
Haga 7y ago
Prison is the only fine that hits all citizens equally