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>I would argue that helping many people allocate their time towards activities they actually value is just as important as saving individual lives. I think you

>I would argue that helping many people allocate their time towards activities they actually value is just as important as saving individual lives. I think you'd pretty easily get trounced making that argument. People would much rather be alive to do something less efficiently than to... not be alive at all. This argument is a bit insane to me.

leetcrew 7y ago
think about the people you care about. would you rather live more years or spend more time with them over a shorter life? what would they prefer? it's an inherently subjective question, and I don't think the answer is obvious. I certainly don't think one of the answers is "insane".
- EpicEng 7y ago
  Why are you assuming that I would spend less time with e.g. my wife if she were less efficient in performing some menial task? It would take her longer _to complete_, but that doesn't mean she wouldn't still quit working at 5. Besides, most of the software we write is pretty inconsequential as far as most people are concerned.
  - leetcrew 7y ago
    > Why are you assuming that I would spend less time with e.g. my wife if she were less efficient in performing some menial task? because "helping many people allocate their time towards activities they actually value" was an important premise I stated in the post you originally replied to? I deliberately excluded stuff that merely improves productivity at work (although not everyone is fortunate enough to have a job where they can just leave at five if the work isn't done).
    - EpicEng 7y ago
      Then you're going to have to give me some examples. All in all I think doctors and medical scientists are more important to the world than the vast majority of us (since we have to make it an either/or for the sake of argument), so get specific.
      - leetcrew 7y ago
        I for one am quite grateful to the engineers who implement electronic automatic billing. when I was a kid, it seemed like my dad spent a lot of time sorting through mail and writing/mailing individual checks for services. now it's automatically billed to the credit card, the credit card gets autopaid from checking, and he just has to make sure there's enough in his checking at the end of the month. that's not a huge amount of time and thought saved, but it's not nothing either. there's a lot of this stuff that we take advantage of in our lives without really noticing, I think.
        EpicEng 7y ago
        Automatic billing... Meanwhile, median life expectancy has skyrocketed, in large part due to new medical treatments and early detection methods. Unless your father was spending 20-30% of each day paying bills, I don't think that's going to do it. I remain unconvinced. Let's also not forget the drain on interpersonal relations that software has brought about. If your father would have spent that time ok on FB instead I'm not sure we gained anything.
- kerkeslager 7y ago
  We live in a society where people work 40 hours a week, regardless. If people do a menial task more efficiently, the reward isn't going home and spending time with their family, it's more menial tasks. There is an exception: you might get to go home to your family if you get fired because your department is so much more efficient that you are no longer necessary. But given our society also demands that people do 40 hours a week of menial tasks to eat and live inside, it's hard to argue that's a good thing. The only way increased productivity lets people spend more time for themselves is if it is on menial tasks outside of work, and most individual consumers won't pay for software, so then you're often into violating people's privacy to sell ads, which again is pretty hard to justify.

leetcrew 7y ago

think about the people you care about. would you rather live more years or spend more time with them over a shorter life? what would they prefer? it's an inherently subjective question, and I don't think the answer is obvious. I certainly don't think one of the answers is "insane".

EpicEng 7y ago
Why are you assuming that I would spend less time with e.g. my wife if she were less efficient in performing some menial task? It would take her longer _to complete_, but that doesn't mean she wouldn't still quit working at 5. Besides, most of the software we write is pretty inconsequential as far as most people are concerned.
- leetcrew 7y ago
  > Why are you assuming that I would spend less time with e.g. my wife if she were less efficient in performing some menial task? because "helping many people allocate their time towards activities they actually value" was an important premise I stated in the post you originally replied to? I deliberately excluded stuff that merely improves productivity at work (although not everyone is fortunate enough to have a job where they can just leave at five if the work isn't done).
  - EpicEng 7y ago
    Then you're going to have to give me some examples. All in all I think doctors and medical scientists are more important to the world than the vast majority of us (since we have to make it an either/or for the sake of argument), so get specific.
    - leetcrew 7y ago
      I for one am quite grateful to the engineers who implement electronic automatic billing. when I was a kid, it seemed like my dad spent a lot of time sorting through mail and writing/mailing individual checks for services. now it's automatically billed to the credit card, the credit card gets autopaid from checking, and he just has to make sure there's enough in his checking at the end of the month. that's not a huge amount of time and thought saved, but it's not nothing either. there's a lot of this stuff that we take advantage of in our lives without really noticing, I think.
      - EpicEng 7y ago
        Automatic billing... Meanwhile, median life expectancy has skyrocketed, in large part due to new medical treatments and early detection methods. Unless your father was spending 20-30% of each day paying bills, I don't think that's going to do it. I remain unconvinced. Let's also not forget the drain on interpersonal relations that software has brought about. If your father would have spent that time ok on FB instead I'm not sure we gained anything.
kerkeslager 7y ago
We live in a society where people work 40 hours a week, regardless. If people do a menial task more efficiently, the reward isn't going home and spending time with their family, it's more menial tasks. There is an exception: you might get to go home to your family if you get fired because your department is so much more efficient that you are no longer necessary. But given our society also demands that people do 40 hours a week of menial tasks to eat and live inside, it's hard to argue that's a good thing. The only way increased productivity lets people spend more time for themselves is if it is on menial tasks outside of work, and most individual consumers won't pay for software, so then you're often into violating people's privacy to sell ads, which again is pretty hard to justify.