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> I will not believe this when a person is involved in violent acts, rape, murder, etc. which nobody "needs" to do to survive. Agreed. There is a spectrum of

> I will not believe this when a person is involved in violent acts, rape, murder, etc. which nobody "needs" to do to survive. Agreed. There is a spectrum of individuals, and not everyone is good. However, if you break down the types of crime, non-violent crimes are very much the majority (0). Most people don't like hurting other people. If you want an example of a working system with the mentality of "Rehabilitate over Punish", see many of the Nordic countries (1). > in the past decade, the number of Swedish prisoners has dropped from 5,722 to 4,500 out of a population of 9.5 million. The country has closed a number of prisons, and the recidivism rate is around 40%, which is far less than in the U.S. and most European countries. You can argue this is due to other factors such as overall wealth of the nation, but that further proves my point that crime is more often an act of desperation rather than one of sadism. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_the_United_States [1] https://www.mic.com/articles/109138/sweden-has-done-for-its-prisoners-what-the-u-s-won-t https://www.mic.com/articles/109138/sweden-has-done-for-its-...

andrewxdiamond 7y ago
Additionally, > and it's not like most of these criminal sorts haven't had 18 years of second chances and resources being thrown at them A lot of these kids _haven't_. You're assuming everyone grew up in a middle class neighborhood with good teachers and was never pressured by gangs and never mistreated by authority. That's simply not the case. If you examine the personal history of many imprisoned people, you'll find a common pattern of poverty, limited chances, and family issues. All of which aren't the fault of the individual.
- core-questions 7y ago
  > You're assuming everyone grew up in a middle class neighborhood with good teachers and was never pressured by gangs and never mistreated by authority. I'm not assuming that at all, I just don't buy it as an excuse for anything. Should we let such problems fester forever? Aww, gee, this kid grew up around gangs, guess we better give him a free pass for a few crimes that we wouldn't give to a privileged kid? If anything we need to be harsher on gangland so as to eventually stomp it out. Unless you think that we should just accept organized crime as a fact of life and stop trying? Damn, those Brazilian favelas are looking better all the time, eh? > If you examine the personal history of many imprisoned people, you'll find a common pattern of poverty, limited chances, and family issues. Probably also find a common pattern of low IQ.
  - andrewxdiamond 7y ago
    > Should we let such problems fester forever? Absolutely not. We should take measures to ensure that individuals in those areas are on a path to better futures, if not for themselves, then for their posterity who will continue to live in that area. But you don't give people better fathers and mothers by taking them away and abusing them. If anything, doing that would just inspire distrust in the government and authority in general into those kids, leading to a poor future outside of society. > better give him a free pass for a few crimes that we wouldn't give to a privileged kid I never said anything about treating people differently based on their backgrounds. > If anything we need to be harsher on gangland so as to eventually stomp it out. Unless you think that we should just accept organized crime as a fact of life and stop trying? Damn, those Brazilian favelas are looking better all the time, eh? Ironic you mentioned Brazil, a country with massive crime issues and a grim future, and also aligns with your "Harsh on Crime" stance[0]. Whereas some of the lowest crime rates in the world can be seen in Switzerland, Denmark and Norway, where prisons are rehabilitation first[1]. > Probably also find a common pattern of low IQ. Wouldn't that imply education would help? You seem to be contradicting yourself, I recommend reading up on the topic a bit more to form more informed opinions. https://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2012/12/18/prison-could-be-productive/punishment-fails-rehabilitation-works https://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2012/12/18/prison-coul... https://www.ncjrs.gov/App/Publications/abstract.aspx?ID=133881 https://www.ncjrs.gov/App/Publications/abstract.aspx?ID=1338... https://www.foxnews.com/politics/rehab-not-punishment-must-drive-prison-system-key-leaders-tell-panel https://www.foxnews.com/politics/rehab-not-punishment-must-d... :) (0) https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/2540444/inside-brazil-prisons-gang-wars/ https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/2540444/inside-brazil-prisons-... (1) http://worldpopulationreview.com/countries/crime-rate-by-country/ http://worldpopulationreview.com/countries/crime-rate-by-cou...

andrewxdiamond 7y ago

Additionally, > and it's not like most of these criminal sorts haven't had 18 years of second chances and resources being thrown at them A lot of these kids _haven't_. You're assuming everyone grew up in a middle class neighborhood with good teachers and was never pressured by gangs and never mistreated by authority. That's simply not the case. If you examine the personal history of many imprisoned people, you'll find a common pattern of poverty, limited chances, and family issues. All of which aren't the fault of the individual.

core-questions 7y ago
> You're assuming everyone grew up in a middle class neighborhood with good teachers and was never pressured by gangs and never mistreated by authority. I'm not assuming that at all, I just don't buy it as an excuse for anything. Should we let such problems fester forever? Aww, gee, this kid grew up around gangs, guess we better give him a free pass for a few crimes that we wouldn't give to a privileged kid? If anything we need to be harsher on gangland so as to eventually stomp it out. Unless you think that we should just accept organized crime as a fact of life and stop trying? Damn, those Brazilian favelas are looking better all the time, eh? > If you examine the personal history of many imprisoned people, you'll find a common pattern of poverty, limited chances, and family issues. Probably also find a common pattern of low IQ.
- andrewxdiamond 7y ago
  > Should we let such problems fester forever? Absolutely not. We should take measures to ensure that individuals in those areas are on a path to better futures, if not for themselves, then for their posterity who will continue to live in that area. But you don't give people better fathers and mothers by taking them away and abusing them. If anything, doing that would just inspire distrust in the government and authority in general into those kids, leading to a poor future outside of society. > better give him a free pass for a few crimes that we wouldn't give to a privileged kid I never said anything about treating people differently based on their backgrounds. > If anything we need to be harsher on gangland so as to eventually stomp it out. Unless you think that we should just accept organized crime as a fact of life and stop trying? Damn, those Brazilian favelas are looking better all the time, eh? Ironic you mentioned Brazil, a country with massive crime issues and a grim future, and also aligns with your "Harsh on Crime" stance[0]. Whereas some of the lowest crime rates in the world can be seen in Switzerland, Denmark and Norway, where prisons are rehabilitation first[1]. > Probably also find a common pattern of low IQ. Wouldn't that imply education would help? You seem to be contradicting yourself, I recommend reading up on the topic a bit more to form more informed opinions. https://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2012/12/18/prison-could-be-productive/punishment-fails-rehabilitation-works https://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2012/12/18/prison-coul... https://www.ncjrs.gov/App/Publications/abstract.aspx?ID=133881 https://www.ncjrs.gov/App/Publications/abstract.aspx?ID=1338... https://www.foxnews.com/politics/rehab-not-punishment-must-drive-prison-system-key-leaders-tell-panel https://www.foxnews.com/politics/rehab-not-punishment-must-d... :) (0) https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/2540444/inside-brazil-prisons-gang-wars/ https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/2540444/inside-brazil-prisons-... (1) http://worldpopulationreview.com/countries/crime-rate-by-country/ http://worldpopulationreview.com/countries/crime-rate-by-cou...