5 ms·

If it's doing TCP then there's a whole network stack to attack. I bet there's a big range of embedded systems that can be crashed because they have a simplistic

If it's doing TCP then there's a whole network stack to attack. I bet there's a big range of embedded systems that can be crashed because they have a simplistic cut-down, non-hardened TCP/IP/Ethernet implementation that can be abused. You've got a chance of breaking it through sending malformed packets to cause a panic, or just exhausting its memory - which might cause it to reboot (maybe lots of fragmented packets?) The lack of listening ports might shrink the attack surface, but a malicious endpoint that it connects to might be able to confuse it. (or perhaps some evil MITM attacker)

thisisnico 7y ago
I bet that these devices are local only. Working in IT the security measures for these devices are likely that they are sitting on their own isolated VLAN. Routing is likely controlled by layer 3 switches with dedicated ACLs to only allow certain systems to obtain access to that VLAN. If it's a rail company the network itself is likely protected by an Cisco ASA or ASA style dedicated network security appliance. Networks have been hardened pretty well. Most often the exploits that IT is worrying about is application-based and user-based (social engineering).
- joosters 7y ago
  It's probably the best way to secure them - but I think that defeats the spirit of the 'connected to the internet' part of this uptime security challenge :)
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- wbl 7y ago
  Network hardening fundamentally has sone serious limitations because it doesnt expose the principals to the devices controlling access.
deleted 7y ago
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ClumsyPilot 7y ago
Malicious endpoint is certainly an interesting scenario, let me work through a few possibilities: 1. Wiznet produces chips where the entire network stack is implemented in hardware, there is no code. Malformed packets will never touch my code. http://shop.wiznet.eu/chips/w5500.html http://shop.wiznet.eu/chips/w5500.html However, this is a minority of devices. 2. These devices typically have no dynamic memory allocation at all, they will work with a circular buffer of fixed size. Normally they can't run out of memory. 3. You might be able to clog up their CPU, however they typically use an RTOS, those operating systems will place hard limits on amount of CPU time different components of the system could take. At best, you will prevent the device from sending out anything over the network while you are attacking it. 4. Of-course, if there are mistakes in the TCP/IP stack, you might cause issues. Most of them are using lwIP stack, I am not qualified to comment on it's security. https://savannah.nongnu.org/projects/lwip/ https://savannah.nongnu.org/projects/lwip/

thisisnico 7y ago

I bet that these devices are local only. Working in IT the security measures for these devices are likely that they are sitting on their own isolated VLAN. Routing is likely controlled by layer 3 switches with dedicated ACLs to only allow certain systems to obtain access to that VLAN. If it's a rail company the network itself is likely protected by an Cisco ASA or ASA style dedicated network security appliance. Networks have been hardened pretty well. Most often the exploits that IT is worrying about is application-based and user-based (social engineering).

joosters 7y ago
It's probably the best way to secure them - but I think that defeats the spirit of the 'connected to the internet' part of this uptime security challenge :)
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
wbl 7y ago
Network hardening fundamentally has sone serious limitations because it doesnt expose the principals to the devices controlling access.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

ClumsyPilot 7y ago

Malicious endpoint is certainly an interesting scenario, let me work through a few possibilities: 1. Wiznet produces chips where the entire network stack is implemented in hardware, there is no code. Malformed packets will never touch my code. http://shop.wiznet.eu/chips/w5500.html http://shop.wiznet.eu/chips/w5500.html However, this is a minority of devices. 2. These devices typically have no dynamic memory allocation at all, they will work with a circular buffer of fixed size. Normally they can't run out of memory. 3. You might be able to clog up their CPU, however they typically use an RTOS, those operating systems will place hard limits on amount of CPU time different components of the system could take. At best, you will prevent the device from sending out anything over the network while you are attacking it. 4. Of-course, if there are mistakes in the TCP/IP stack, you might cause issues. Most of them are using lwIP stack, I am not qualified to comment on it's security. https://savannah.nongnu.org/projects/lwip/ https://savannah.nongnu.org/projects/lwip/