4 ms·

There is this illusion in european countries that factory farming is a thing of the US, when in fact for example in Ireland factory farming it exists too - http

by vfc1 7y ago

There is this illusion in european countries that factory farming is a thing of the US, when in fact for example in Ireland factory farming it exists too - https://beyondthepaleireland.com/2017/07/28/factory-farms-on-the-increase-in-ireland/ https://beyondthepaleireland.com/2017/07/28/factory-farms-on... And it couldn't be any other way, its economics. If one farmer starts feeding the animals with cheaper food and have better milk yielding cows, he would have a competitive advantage over other farmers, and start taking over a larger part of the market.

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
netcan 7y ago
As, I and you link say... pork (and poultry) is a different story. Dairy, beef & lamb are farmed differently here. There is nuance. This is a disingenuous way of making an argument. Existence of factory farming isn't in dispute. It exists. ...as does regular farming! How can you possibly argue that decent farming (eg dairy) doesn't exist. Decent farming exists. Widely. Profitably. I'm looking out my window at decently raised cows right now. If you think farming is wrong in principle, that's fine. We can debate this. Arguing that farming is inevitably dominated by bad factory farming practices is nonsense.
- tracker1 7y ago
  I also think as knowledge spreads surrounding broader ecosystems and micro-nutrient balance in the food we grow (animal and plant) and how they are needed together and work better together, the perception will eventually change. Unfortunately overcoming years of marketing and influence peddling in the government is hard to overcome. Look how long it took to overcome the disinformation on fats and dietary cholesterol, and it still persists to this day. People are still afraid to eat too much salt, fat, cholesterol. At the same time, look at how many people think it's fine to consume over 100g of sugars a day (mostly refined). It's kind of nuts when you think about it. I agree, there are lots of responsible and ecosystem driven farms practices out there, it's just hard to convince a lot of people about the value. Aside: I did love the most recent South Park episode, Cartman's apology on processed (vegan) foods was hilarious.
- vfc1 7y ago
  Depends on what you call decent. I mean for the cow it might have more space to walk around and eat grass. Still, it will have their child taken at birth, shot, plugged into a milk machine daily, etc. Farming if left to the natural economic forces in the market will lead to factory farming, unless regulated which is usually not the case. It's on the rise in Europe for example. It's about supply and demand, and about producing the cheapest product at the highest margin, spending the least amount of money. People at the supermarket will often just choose the cheapest option. Also, there is the need to feed a lot of people, and with animal products its hard to do that with traditional methods especially given the current levels of meat consumption.
  - netcan 7y ago
    >Depends on what you call decent. I mean for the cow it might have more space to walk around and eat grass. Basically, yes. I can see how opinions would differ, that human exploitation makes it wrong. I do see farming involving raising animals for milk & meat as decent if done decently. It's a big question, and imo, fundamental in that it doesn't have deeper reasons. Singer (you mentioned above) is famously utilitarian (in the bentham sense). So he does go one deeper. Right & wrong = pleasure and pain. For cows specifically, the question gets too weird to do the utilitarian math... for me. In some senses, cows wouldn't have exist separately from farming, and for the most part won't. They did in the aurochs sense, but auroch are extinct and were probably pretty different. Would the world be better without cows... Anyway, a lot of this relates to where I live. Visit Ireland, you will encounter cows. Decent farming is more than viable. I'm not even sure feedlots is what you would get in an unregulated market. All agg markets are subsidized & regulated, so who knows. It's even possible to do pork and poultry well, though here it generally isn't.
leetcrew 7y ago
> And it couldn't be any other way, its economics. If one farmer starts feeding the animals with cheaper food and have better milk yielding cows, he would have a competitive advantage over other farmers, and start taking over a larger part of the market. I don't think this is really true. people tend to associate "ethical" products with higher quality and are willing to pay more for them if they can afford it. this is the whole business model for stores like whole foods. of course whole foods sometimes misleads customers regarding how "ethical" the sourcing really is, but that's more a problem of marketing/advertising.
- vfc1 7y ago
  I think the truth is, most people don't care. They just go to the supermarket and throw in their shopping cart the cheapest option, and that's about it. Its too much work and unrealistic to think people will be that aware, read labels, compare options, etc. It needs to come from the law.
  - leetcrew 7y ago
    > I think the truth is, most people don't care. They just go to the supermarket and throw in their shopping cart the cheapest option, and that's about it. sure, all I'm saying is both can be true. most people can not care and just by the cheapest stuff and you can have upmarket suppliers for whole foods and farmer's market. obviously this is not a solution for all the animals. that probably does have to be some sort of law. good luck to any politician who campaigns on pricing poor people out of meat.
eMSF 7y ago
Almost everything you listed in your opening post is all but completely absent here in cattle production, including soy, corn, hormones, antibiotics, and I could bet cows here don't descend from the same bulls either. So yes, your little vegan rant is a thing of the US.
- vfc1 7y ago
  Of course, there are factory farms in Europe. Less than in the US, but on the rise and only getting worse https://www.greenpeace.org/eu-unit/issues/nature-food/1923/factory-farms-divide-eu-parliament/ https://www.greenpeace.org/eu-unit/issues/nature-food/1923/f... Especially for things like chickens and pork, they are prevalent, but also for cows. Of course, a large portion of European cattle is fed grain rations. Europe is literally covered with feed crops. This argument that you hear a lot online as "it's a thing of the US" is just not true.
anigbrowl 7y ago
And it couldn't be any other way, its economics. Of course it can. You just regulate the market and don't allow it to operate completely freely because it's well understood that if you do do so everyone will quickly converge on the lowest common denominator.

by vfc1 7y ago

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

netcan 7y ago

As, I and you link say... pork (and poultry) is a different story. Dairy, beef & lamb are farmed differently here. There is nuance. This is a disingenuous way of making an argument. Existence of factory farming isn't in dispute. It exists. ...as does regular farming! How can you possibly argue that decent farming (eg dairy) doesn't exist. Decent farming exists. Widely. Profitably. I'm looking out my window at decently raised cows right now. If you think farming is wrong in principle, that's fine. We can debate this. Arguing that farming is inevitably dominated by bad factory farming practices is nonsense.

tracker1 7y ago
I also think as knowledge spreads surrounding broader ecosystems and micro-nutrient balance in the food we grow (animal and plant) and how they are needed together and work better together, the perception will eventually change. Unfortunately overcoming years of marketing and influence peddling in the government is hard to overcome. Look how long it took to overcome the disinformation on fats and dietary cholesterol, and it still persists to this day. People are still afraid to eat too much salt, fat, cholesterol. At the same time, look at how many people think it's fine to consume over 100g of sugars a day (mostly refined). It's kind of nuts when you think about it. I agree, there are lots of responsible and ecosystem driven farms practices out there, it's just hard to convince a lot of people about the value. Aside: I did love the most recent South Park episode, Cartman's apology on processed (vegan) foods was hilarious.
vfc1 7y ago
Depends on what you call decent. I mean for the cow it might have more space to walk around and eat grass. Still, it will have their child taken at birth, shot, plugged into a milk machine daily, etc. Farming if left to the natural economic forces in the market will lead to factory farming, unless regulated which is usually not the case. It's on the rise in Europe for example. It's about supply and demand, and about producing the cheapest product at the highest margin, spending the least amount of money. People at the supermarket will often just choose the cheapest option. Also, there is the need to feed a lot of people, and with animal products its hard to do that with traditional methods especially given the current levels of meat consumption.
- netcan 7y ago
  >Depends on what you call decent. I mean for the cow it might have more space to walk around and eat grass. Basically, yes. I can see how opinions would differ, that human exploitation makes it wrong. I do see farming involving raising animals for milk & meat as decent if done decently. It's a big question, and imo, fundamental in that it doesn't have deeper reasons. Singer (you mentioned above) is famously utilitarian (in the bentham sense). So he does go one deeper. Right & wrong = pleasure and pain. For cows specifically, the question gets too weird to do the utilitarian math... for me. In some senses, cows wouldn't have exist separately from farming, and for the most part won't. They did in the aurochs sense, but auroch are extinct and were probably pretty different. Would the world be better without cows... Anyway, a lot of this relates to where I live. Visit Ireland, you will encounter cows. Decent farming is more than viable. I'm not even sure feedlots is what you would get in an unregulated market. All agg markets are subsidized & regulated, so who knows. It's even possible to do pork and poultry well, though here it generally isn't.

leetcrew 7y ago

> And it couldn't be any other way, its economics. If one farmer starts feeding the animals with cheaper food and have better milk yielding cows, he would have a competitive advantage over other farmers, and start taking over a larger part of the market. I don't think this is really true. people tend to associate "ethical" products with higher quality and are willing to pay more for them if they can afford it. this is the whole business model for stores like whole foods. of course whole foods sometimes misleads customers regarding how "ethical" the sourcing really is, but that's more a problem of marketing/advertising.

vfc1 7y ago
I think the truth is, most people don't care. They just go to the supermarket and throw in their shopping cart the cheapest option, and that's about it. Its too much work and unrealistic to think people will be that aware, read labels, compare options, etc. It needs to come from the law.
- leetcrew 7y ago
  > I think the truth is, most people don't care. They just go to the supermarket and throw in their shopping cart the cheapest option, and that's about it. sure, all I'm saying is both can be true. most people can not care and just by the cheapest stuff and you can have upmarket suppliers for whole foods and farmer's market. obviously this is not a solution for all the animals. that probably does have to be some sort of law. good luck to any politician who campaigns on pricing poor people out of meat.

eMSF 7y ago

Almost everything you listed in your opening post is all but completely absent here in cattle production, including soy, corn, hormones, antibiotics, and I could bet cows here don't descend from the same bulls either. So yes, your little vegan rant is a thing of the US.

vfc1 7y ago
Of course, there are factory farms in Europe. Less than in the US, but on the rise and only getting worse https://www.greenpeace.org/eu-unit/issues/nature-food/1923/factory-farms-divide-eu-parliament/ https://www.greenpeace.org/eu-unit/issues/nature-food/1923/f... Especially for things like chickens and pork, they are prevalent, but also for cows. Of course, a large portion of European cattle is fed grain rations. Europe is literally covered with feed crops. This argument that you hear a lot online as "it's a thing of the US" is just not true.

anigbrowl 7y ago

And it couldn't be any other way, its economics. Of course it can. You just regulate the market and don't allow it to operate completely freely because it's well understood that if you do do so everyone will quickly converge on the lowest common denominator.