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An occasional random death at work is statistically inevitable. Six deaths in as many months is something else. A week before Billy Foister died of a heart att

An occasional random death at work is statistically inevitable. Six deaths in as many months is something else. A week before Billy Foister died of a heart attack, he went to the onsite clinic complaining of chest pains. They said he was dehydrated and told him to drink some water and go back to work. The article links to the NCOSH Dirty Dozen report, which describes a well-documented history of Amazon mistreating sick and injured employees. http://nationalcosh.org/sites/default/files/uploads/2019_Dirty_Dozen.pdf http://nationalcosh.org/sites/default/files/uploads/2019_Dir... Don't write this off as a series of unfortunate coincidences.

tomatotomato37 7y ago
Amazon has more employees than the state of Vermont's population, which last year had an average death rate of 500 per month. If anything this shows that working for Amazon is good for your health
- lonelappde 7y ago
  Vermont has only 12 workplace deaths per year. Yes, being able and working at Amazon is better for your health than being 90years old with cancer.
- ilikepi 7y ago
  Given that Vermont's population includes children, elderly, infirm, etc, it doesn't seem logical to draw conclusions from comparing the death rate of the two populations.
- zepto 7y ago
  I didn’t realize Amazon hires the elderly and people in hospital.
  - krapp 7y ago
    Amazon will hire anyone who can pass a drug test and physically handle the work for at least a day.
    - zepto 7y ago
      ...which people in hospital clearly cannot.
      - krapp 7y ago
        Yes, it goes without saying that people who are not physically able to either interview for, or be present at the location of the job, will not be able to perform the job.
        zepto 7y ago
        ... and since Vermont doesn’t have these selection criteria for its residents, the comparison makes no sense.
- midgetjones 7y ago
  a lot of 70-90 year-olds working in amazon warehouses you think?
  - londons_explore 7y ago
    Well the incidents seem to mostly be with workers aged 60+... And when you get to your 60's random sudden health incidents become much more likely.
  - krapp 7y ago
    I can only speak in the case of one warehouse, but yes - I've seen a lot of middle-aged people working there.
    - midgetjones 7y ago
      70-90 is middle-aged now?
      - krapp 7y ago
        I was estimating ages of 50 and older based on appearance, I didn't actually take a poll or anything.
- PhasmaFelis 7y ago
  The population of Vermont includes thousands of premature babies, bedridden elders, stage 4 cancer patients, and other vulnerable demographics that are not typically working at Amazon. Also, even at the worst rush times, Amazon employees are at work for maybe 60-70 hours a week out of 168 total. Dying off the clock isn't counted. And you're ignoring the multiple specific instances of wrongdoing that I mentioned.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- rebuilder 7y ago
  There's probably an important demographic difference or two between Amazon employees and the entire population of Vermont. Like, how many 80-year-olds do you think work at Amazon?
gridlockd 7y ago
> Six deaths in as many months is something else. It says "Six worker deaths in seven months; 13 deaths since 2013." It doesn't go into any detail as to whether these workers actually died on the job. Six out of ~125,000 warehouse workers in one year would be double the average[1] (over all professions), but 13 out of ~100,000 over six years would be quite low. > A week before Billy Foister died of a heart attack, he went to the onsite clinic complaining of chest pains. They said he was dehydrated and told him to drink some water and go back to work. That sounds like medical malpractice, should be investigated on its own merits. > Don't write this off as a series of unfortunate coincidences. Yes, but also don't declare it a scandal before the facts are on the table. [1] https://www.bls.gov/news.release/pdf/cfoi.pdf https://www.bls.gov/news.release/pdf/cfoi.pdf
- PhasmaFelis 7y ago
  > It says "Six worker deaths in seven months; 13 deaths since 2013." It doesn't go into any detail as to whether these workers actually died on the job. One might reasonably assume that an article about workplace deaths isn't counting employees who slipped in the shower at home. But we don't have to assume: the linked Dirty Dozen list published in April 2019 says "Six workers have died at U.S. Amazon facilities or operations since November 2018." Six on-the-job deaths in six months, November to April. Not all of them were in warehouses, but all of them were preventable. It also mentions (direct quotes): * a high incidence of suicide attempts * workers urinating in bottles because they are afraid to take breaks * workers left without resources or income after on-the-job injuries * the company treated illness as a “misdemeanor,” assigning a point that could have led to dismissal when [an undercover investigator] took a sick day This is not a few bad apples. This is systematic.
  - gridlockd 7y ago
    > One might reasonably assume that an article about workplace deaths isn't counting employees who slipped in the shower at home. I disagree. With these kinds of sources, you can't reasonably assume this. > But we don't have to assume: the linked Dirty Dozen list published in April 2019 says "Six workers have died at U.S. Amazon facilities or operations since November 2018." Six on-the-job deaths in six months, November to April. Not all of them were in warehouses, but all of them were preventable. You're right, I should have paid more attention, because those deaths aren't Amazon employees at all and none of them are warehouse workers: - Andrew Lindsayand Israel Espana Argote, contract workers, died when the wall of an Amazon warehouse collapsed during a severe storm in Baltimore in November 2018. - Brien James Dauntfell to his death during construction of an Amazon warehouse in Oildale, CA in January 2019. Falls from a height are a well-known –and preventable –hazard in the construction industry, with long-established protocols to reduce risks. CalOSHA is investigating the incident. - Aviators Ricky Blakely,Conrad Jules Askaand Sean Archuletadied in February when an Air Atlas plane, carrying cargo for Amazon, crashed into Trinity Bay, southeast of Texas. Blakely and Aska worked for Air Atlas and were members of the Airline Professional Association (APA), Teamsters Local 224. The National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) is investigating the incident. None of these incidents hint at negligence on the part of Amazon. This also explains why over the period of several years, Amazon workplace fatalities were well below average: They counted those properly. Working at Amazon is actually very safe, statistically speaking.
Merrill 7y ago
Re the 6 deaths in as many months: http://nationalcosh.org/sites/default/files/uploads/2019_Dirty_Dozen.pdf http://nationalcosh.org/sites/default/files/uploads/2019_Dir... >All six workers who died at Amazon facilities and operations during the past six months were employees of other firms or contract workers, rather than full-time Amazon employees. ● Andrew Lindsay and Israel Espana Argote, contract workers, died when the wall of an Amazon warehouse collapsed during a severe storm in Baltimore in November 2018. ● Brien James Daunt fell to his death during construction of an Amazon warehouse in Oildale, CA in January 2019. Falls from a height are a well-known – and preventable – hazard in the construction industry, with long-established protocols to reduce risks. CalOSHA is investigating the incident. ● Aviators Ricky Blakely, Conrad Jules Aska and Sean Archuleta died in February when an Air Atlas plane, carrying cargo for Amazon, crashed into Trinity Bay, southeast of Texas. Blakely and Aska worked for Air Atlas and were members of the Airline Professional Association (APA), Teamsters Local 224. The National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) is investigating the incident.
- PhasmaFelis 7y ago
  > All six workers who died at Amazon facilities and operations during the past six months were employees of other firms or contract workers, rather than full-time Amazon employees. That changes nothing. They were working to Amazon's rules at Amazon operations. Amazon bears responsibility for the firms they choose to work with and the requirements they give them.
  - Spivak 7y ago
    Okay, sure but contractors dying in accidents at a work site is a hugely different narrative than "Amazon is working their warehouse staff... to death" which is what is currently happening.

tomatotomato37 7y ago

Amazon has more employees than the state of Vermont's population, which last year had an average death rate of 500 per month. If anything this shows that working for Amazon is good for your health

lonelappde 7y ago
Vermont has only 12 workplace deaths per year. Yes, being able and working at Amazon is better for your health than being 90years old with cancer.
ilikepi 7y ago
Given that Vermont's population includes children, elderly, infirm, etc, it doesn't seem logical to draw conclusions from comparing the death rate of the two populations.
zepto 7y ago
I didn’t realize Amazon hires the elderly and people in hospital.
- krapp 7y ago
  Amazon will hire anyone who can pass a drug test and physically handle the work for at least a day.
  - zepto 7y ago
    ...which people in hospital clearly cannot.
    - krapp 7y ago
      Yes, it goes without saying that people who are not physically able to either interview for, or be present at the location of the job, will not be able to perform the job.
      - zepto 7y ago
        ... and since Vermont doesn’t have these selection criteria for its residents, the comparison makes no sense.
midgetjones 7y ago
a lot of 70-90 year-olds working in amazon warehouses you think?
- londons_explore 7y ago
  Well the incidents seem to mostly be with workers aged 60+... And when you get to your 60's random sudden health incidents become much more likely.
- krapp 7y ago
  I can only speak in the case of one warehouse, but yes - I've seen a lot of middle-aged people working there.
  - midgetjones 7y ago
    70-90 is middle-aged now?
    - krapp 7y ago
      I was estimating ages of 50 and older based on appearance, I didn't actually take a poll or anything.
PhasmaFelis 7y ago
The population of Vermont includes thousands of premature babies, bedridden elders, stage 4 cancer patients, and other vulnerable demographics that are not typically working at Amazon. Also, even at the worst rush times, Amazon employees are at work for maybe 60-70 hours a week out of 168 total. Dying off the clock isn't counted. And you're ignoring the multiple specific instances of wrongdoing that I mentioned.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
rebuilder 7y ago
There's probably an important demographic difference or two between Amazon employees and the entire population of Vermont. Like, how many 80-year-olds do you think work at Amazon?

gridlockd 7y ago

> Six deaths in as many months is something else. It says "Six worker deaths in seven months; 13 deaths since 2013." It doesn't go into any detail as to whether these workers actually died on the job. Six out of ~125,000 warehouse workers in one year would be double the average[1] (over all professions), but 13 out of ~100,000 over six years would be quite low. > A week before Billy Foister died of a heart attack, he went to the onsite clinic complaining of chest pains. They said he was dehydrated and told him to drink some water and go back to work. That sounds like medical malpractice, should be investigated on its own merits. > Don't write this off as a series of unfortunate coincidences. Yes, but also don't declare it a scandal before the facts are on the table. [1] https://www.bls.gov/news.release/pdf/cfoi.pdf https://www.bls.gov/news.release/pdf/cfoi.pdf

PhasmaFelis 7y ago
> It says "Six worker deaths in seven months; 13 deaths since 2013." It doesn't go into any detail as to whether these workers actually died on the job. One might reasonably assume that an article about workplace deaths isn't counting employees who slipped in the shower at home. But we don't have to assume: the linked Dirty Dozen list published in April 2019 says "Six workers have died at U.S. Amazon facilities or operations since November 2018." Six on-the-job deaths in six months, November to April. Not all of them were in warehouses, but all of them were preventable. It also mentions (direct quotes): * a high incidence of suicide attempts * workers urinating in bottles because they are afraid to take breaks * workers left without resources or income after on-the-job injuries * the company treated illness as a “misdemeanor,” assigning a point that could have led to dismissal when [an undercover investigator] took a sick day This is not a few bad apples. This is systematic.
- gridlockd 7y ago
  > One might reasonably assume that an article about workplace deaths isn't counting employees who slipped in the shower at home. I disagree. With these kinds of sources, you can't reasonably assume this. > But we don't have to assume: the linked Dirty Dozen list published in April 2019 says "Six workers have died at U.S. Amazon facilities or operations since November 2018." Six on-the-job deaths in six months, November to April. Not all of them were in warehouses, but all of them were preventable. You're right, I should have paid more attention, because those deaths aren't Amazon employees at all and none of them are warehouse workers: - Andrew Lindsayand Israel Espana Argote, contract workers, died when the wall of an Amazon warehouse collapsed during a severe storm in Baltimore in November 2018. - Brien James Dauntfell to his death during construction of an Amazon warehouse in Oildale, CA in January 2019. Falls from a height are a well-known –and preventable –hazard in the construction industry, with long-established protocols to reduce risks. CalOSHA is investigating the incident. - Aviators Ricky Blakely,Conrad Jules Askaand Sean Archuletadied in February when an Air Atlas plane, carrying cargo for Amazon, crashed into Trinity Bay, southeast of Texas. Blakely and Aska worked for Air Atlas and were members of the Airline Professional Association (APA), Teamsters Local 224. The National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) is investigating the incident. None of these incidents hint at negligence on the part of Amazon. This also explains why over the period of several years, Amazon workplace fatalities were well below average: They counted those properly. Working at Amazon is actually very safe, statistically speaking.

Merrill 7y ago

Re the 6 deaths in as many months: http://nationalcosh.org/sites/default/files/uploads/2019_Dirty_Dozen.pdf http://nationalcosh.org/sites/default/files/uploads/2019_Dir... >All six workers who died at Amazon facilities and operations during the past six months were employees of other firms or contract workers, rather than full-time Amazon employees. ● Andrew Lindsay and Israel Espana Argote, contract workers, died when the wall of an Amazon warehouse collapsed during a severe storm in Baltimore in November 2018. ● Brien James Daunt fell to his death during construction of an Amazon warehouse in Oildale, CA in January 2019. Falls from a height are a well-known – and preventable – hazard in the construction industry, with long-established protocols to reduce risks. CalOSHA is investigating the incident. ● Aviators Ricky Blakely, Conrad Jules Aska and Sean Archuleta died in February when an Air Atlas plane, carrying cargo for Amazon, crashed into Trinity Bay, southeast of Texas. Blakely and Aska worked for Air Atlas and were members of the Airline Professional Association (APA), Teamsters Local 224. The National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) is investigating the incident.

PhasmaFelis 7y ago
> All six workers who died at Amazon facilities and operations during the past six months were employees of other firms or contract workers, rather than full-time Amazon employees. That changes nothing. They were working to Amazon's rules at Amazon operations. Amazon bears responsibility for the firms they choose to work with and the requirements they give them.
- Spivak 7y ago
  Okay, sure but contractors dying in accidents at a work site is a hugely different narrative than "Amazon is working their warehouse staff... to death" which is what is currently happening.