3 ms·

> There exists whole industry of keeping cows and producing diary in humane way. These are usually market gimmicks. They say a cow is pastured raised if they l

by vfc1 7y ago

> There exists whole industry of keeping cows and producing diary in humane way. These are usually market gimmicks. They say a cow is pastured raised if they leave it out an hour a day, grass-fed if it gets fed half the diet in grass the other in grains, etc. The costs of raising cattle and producing dairy in that way would simply not allow to meet the demand and it will never happen. Factory farms are the reality of what it takes to produce dairy for so many people. Ultimately, in the end the result the animal dies a horrible death after having lived often a horrible live, so there is nothing humane about that.

aphextim 7y ago
I always get my dairy local. Where I live I am lucky enough to have a family farm that services our area. The nice thing is that their milk isn't that much more than any of the name brands. Maybe 50 cents a gallon. You can tour their farms and watch the process and they are very open about it. http://debackerfamilydairy.com/ http://debackerfamilydairy.com/ If we had more of these local farms servicing more areas it would definitely help reduce reliance on factory farms. If you live in an urban/highly populated area I don't see anyway for a small farm like this to produce enough for the population.
- vfc1 7y ago
  When I saw your post I thought it would a Mom and Pa farm down the road with 5 cows, but this actually looks like a small (to medium?) size factory farm to me, well marketed. Those huge structures are I imagine grain silos to store feed -https://www.google.com/search?q=de+backer+family+dairy&rlz=1C5CHFA_enBE715BE715&sxsrf=ACYBGNQn4k9kyejUXWVKv4s4e__D8zMMuA:1571403917030&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjNt5fi76XlAhVSaVAKHdZECfcQ_AUIEigB&biw=1920&bih=1001#imgrc=ARWxLc9EApx84M https://www.google.com/search?q=de+backer+family+dairy&rlz=1...: How many cows do they have? Apparently farms with more than 100 cows make up just 0.3 percent of the total dairy farm population. You can clearly see that it's a factory-like installation. Are all those people part of the family or full-time employees? I bet several are employees. At least it does not come from across the world it's local so less impactful. > use to make the richest ice cream that you’ll ever taste. The other day I tried one of those plant-based Magnum ice creams, I couldn't tell the difference and actually liked it more.
- Falling3 7y ago
  Some of the worst practices I've witnessed (shooting/drowning male calves) existed on small family farms. The idea that these places are synonymous with humane is absolutely false. The male calves are still treated horrifically - either killed within days or sent to a veal farm. And the female calves are usually put into isolation, which is horrific for a young mammal to have to go through.
gwd 7y ago
> These are usually market gimmicks. They say a cow is pastured raised if they leave it out an hour a day, grass-fed if it gets fed half the diet in grass the other in grains, etc. This is the "market for lemons" problem: Consumers can't tell actually humane treatment from fake, which ends up economically pressuring farms to cut corners and go towards the fake. You could register a trademark and have a certification program for "humane" milk / meat producers to use. Then go around raising awareness of what "pasture-raised" and "grass-fed" really means. If you do a good job of communicating, people will be happy to pay the extra $0.50 (or $1) to know the cows are actually chilling in the fields and not cooped up in a pen.
- lmilcin 7y ago
  This is solvable problem. When consumers and producers don't have incentive to do the right thing very frequently the solution is to regulate. As an example, if a producer declares they meet a specific standard this could mean they voluntarily undergo regular audit of their entire process including how the cows are treated. We do this for many products and services. Here in Poland, eggs are regulated in many categories from hens kept in cages to free-range. When you buy eggs they are all individually stamped with a mark that clearly indicates how hens are kept and fed and you, as a customer, can choose the more expensive product but with a knowledge that you get what you pay for.
  - vfc1 7y ago
    But do most people actually even know what the numbers on those eggs even mean? http://www.krakowpost.com/9096/2015/04/healthy-living-what-do-those-numbers-on-my-eggs-mean http://www.krakowpost.com/9096/2015/04/healthy-living-what-d... It seems like it's just not very effective, most people are looking for the cheapest alternatives as one would expect - https://polandin.com/36653246/consumption-of-ethical-eggs-still-low-in-poland-report https://polandin.com/36653246/consumption-of-ethical-eggs-st...
    - lmilcin 7y ago
      People that are interested, like me, do know. But I agree that packaging for products contains multitude of markings and without extensive research it is difficult to recognize which markings are regulated and which are not and what they mean exactly.

by vfc1 7y ago

aphextim 7y ago

I always get my dairy local. Where I live I am lucky enough to have a family farm that services our area. The nice thing is that their milk isn't that much more than any of the name brands. Maybe 50 cents a gallon. You can tour their farms and watch the process and they are very open about it. http://debackerfamilydairy.com/ http://debackerfamilydairy.com/ If we had more of these local farms servicing more areas it would definitely help reduce reliance on factory farms. If you live in an urban/highly populated area I don't see anyway for a small farm like this to produce enough for the population.

vfc1 7y ago
When I saw your post I thought it would a Mom and Pa farm down the road with 5 cows, but this actually looks like a small (to medium?) size factory farm to me, well marketed. Those huge structures are I imagine grain silos to store feed -https://www.google.com/search?q=de+backer+family+dairy&rlz=1C5CHFA_enBE715BE715&sxsrf=ACYBGNQn4k9kyejUXWVKv4s4e__D8zMMuA:1571403917030&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjNt5fi76XlAhVSaVAKHdZECfcQ_AUIEigB&biw=1920&bih=1001#imgrc=ARWxLc9EApx84M https://www.google.com/search?q=de+backer+family+dairy&rlz=1...: How many cows do they have? Apparently farms with more than 100 cows make up just 0.3 percent of the total dairy farm population. You can clearly see that it's a factory-like installation. Are all those people part of the family or full-time employees? I bet several are employees. At least it does not come from across the world it's local so less impactful. > use to make the richest ice cream that you’ll ever taste. The other day I tried one of those plant-based Magnum ice creams, I couldn't tell the difference and actually liked it more.
Falling3 7y ago
Some of the worst practices I've witnessed (shooting/drowning male calves) existed on small family farms. The idea that these places are synonymous with humane is absolutely false. The male calves are still treated horrifically - either killed within days or sent to a veal farm. And the female calves are usually put into isolation, which is horrific for a young mammal to have to go through.

gwd 7y ago

> These are usually market gimmicks. They say a cow is pastured raised if they leave it out an hour a day, grass-fed if it gets fed half the diet in grass the other in grains, etc. This is the "market for lemons" problem: Consumers can't tell actually humane treatment from fake, which ends up economically pressuring farms to cut corners and go towards the fake. You could register a trademark and have a certification program for "humane" milk / meat producers to use. Then go around raising awareness of what "pasture-raised" and "grass-fed" really means. If you do a good job of communicating, people will be happy to pay the extra $0.50 (or $1) to know the cows are actually chilling in the fields and not cooped up in a pen.

lmilcin 7y ago
This is solvable problem. When consumers and producers don't have incentive to do the right thing very frequently the solution is to regulate. As an example, if a producer declares they meet a specific standard this could mean they voluntarily undergo regular audit of their entire process including how the cows are treated. We do this for many products and services. Here in Poland, eggs are regulated in many categories from hens kept in cages to free-range. When you buy eggs they are all individually stamped with a mark that clearly indicates how hens are kept and fed and you, as a customer, can choose the more expensive product but with a knowledge that you get what you pay for.
- vfc1 7y ago
  But do most people actually even know what the numbers on those eggs even mean? http://www.krakowpost.com/9096/2015/04/healthy-living-what-do-those-numbers-on-my-eggs-mean http://www.krakowpost.com/9096/2015/04/healthy-living-what-d... It seems like it's just not very effective, most people are looking for the cheapest alternatives as one would expect - https://polandin.com/36653246/consumption-of-ethical-eggs-still-low-in-poland-report https://polandin.com/36653246/consumption-of-ethical-eggs-st...
  - lmilcin 7y ago
    People that are interested, like me, do know. But I agree that packaging for products contains multitude of markings and without extensive research it is difficult to recognize which markings are regulated and which are not and what they mean exactly.