4 ms·

There is this common internet illusion that these things only happen in the US. It's a myth, of course, it absolutely happens in Europe too and everywhere in th

by vfc1 7y ago

There is this common internet illusion that these things only happen in the US. It's a myth, of course, it absolutely happens in Europe too and everywhere in the western world. How could it not, its economics and its a business. The goal is to produce the maximum amount of dairy at the lowest possible price, to fulfill an ever-increasing demand. Maybe the agricultural factories are usually not of the same size as in the US, but the techniques and the consequences are the same.

throwawaygkdpvp 7y ago
I regularly order locally-produced milk from very small scale farmers that don't use any of the things you mention and it's nearly not the cost of a luxury item. I live in a huge city, too. So something must be off in what you're saying. I don't know why you show such certainty of tone, are you a specialist?
- vfc1 7y ago
  > I regularly order locally-produced milk from very small scale farmers Not a specialist here, but I think I'm generally well informed and just trying to use some common sense. You probably pay a bit more for that milk than at the supermarket, right? Most people in your country don't do what you do, they buy it at the supermarket. The dairy products at the supermarket simply don't come from those farms. Do you think it would be possible for everyone in your city to consume milk that way? Would there be enough farms to produce enough dairy that way at a reasonable price that most people would be ready to pay? I'm going to guess that probably not that would not be sustainable. Still, in the end, the economic incentives for that farmer to produce more milk are the same. The farmer would be incentivized to use better milk yielding cows, get rid of the males, feed the cheapest possible food to the animals.
  - spion 7y ago
    Some things only really make sense in the US due to the heavy subsidizing of corn. You should definitely double-check your common sense, just in case (I'll check mine too)
    - vfc1 7y ago
      Just checked. Apparently, one 5th of the EU budget goes to support livestock - https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/feb/12/nearly-a-fifth-of-eu-budget-goes-on-livestock-farming-greenpeace https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/feb/12/nearly-a... A lot of it under the form of crop subsidies: > This land, and other targeted subsidies for livestock, is worth between €28-€32bn (£24-£27.9bn) in CAP direct payments per year for the animal farming sector, 18-20% of the EU’s total budget. That seems like pretty heavy subsidizing to me, although in the US I have the impression that things are worse. I think a lot of the europeans perception of the livestock industry comes from advertising, all those pictures on the supermarket of happy farmers next to happy cows and pigs, I think that's where a lot of it comes from.
      - spion 7y ago
        No, thats not true. AFAIK industrial scale beef farming has only started recently in the UK, for example. https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/may/29/revealed-industrial-scale-beef-farming-comes-to-the-uk https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/may/29/revealed...
  - piffey 7y ago
    > Still, in the end, the economic incentives for that farmer to produce more milk are the same. The farmer would be incentivized to use better milk yielding cows, get rid of the males, feed the cheapest possible food to the animals. American here, but I feel like this has to be a very American ideal. Scandinavian countries have this idea of Lagom which is a sort of balance that's right for everything. Italians have this idea of high quality ingredients nurtured in the best way. French have this idea of doing things the exact old way and protecting that. Sure there are places in those societies still for factory farming, but the ethos that profit must rise above all reasoning is something I only see in my culture.
    - vfc1 7y ago
      I'm from Europe, the culture is I bet a bit different but the laws of economics still apply. If a farmer can produce the same product in larger volumes and cheaper, it will have an advantage over the competition and start taking a bigger share of the market. The competition will catch up, etc. it's the same thing. But there is this very powerful marketing message that these things only happen in the US, which is not at all true. It's all these pictures of happy cows and farmers at the supermarket, that create an unrealistic perception of how animals are raised.
- hombre_fatal 7y ago
  So, because you indulge in some tiny fringe practice -- the same thing my dad does in the USA --, you think "all of Europe" doesn't just buy milk in the supermarket?
moby_click 7y ago
Inherent to dairy production is regular impregnation and separating the calves. Just like the egg industry, market pressure favors more "productive" genetics, which results in males basically being discarded early in life, and shorter productive life with higher output for the females. Increasing animal welfare(, for lack of a better term,) results in higher environmental impact, because slower growth, longer lives and less conversion, require more feed and produce more emissions. At least globally - locally, large-scale concentrated operations have a high impact. I can speak for southern Germany where there are still many small farms in villages. Due to space constraints, those businesses have to extract as much as possible out of every animal. I only have german sources, but this is what those stalls can look like: https://www.ariwa.org/leben-in-ketten-video/ https://www.ariwa.org/leben-in-ketten-video/ The text says that cows are tethered like this for months or even years (basically their whole life). It's estimated that this affects about 1 million or about a quarter of the german dairy cows. I think the Matrix would compare favorably to this.

by vfc1 7y ago

throwawaygkdpvp 7y ago

I regularly order locally-produced milk from very small scale farmers that don't use any of the things you mention and it's nearly not the cost of a luxury item. I live in a huge city, too. So something must be off in what you're saying. I don't know why you show such certainty of tone, are you a specialist?

vfc1 7y ago
> I regularly order locally-produced milk from very small scale farmers Not a specialist here, but I think I'm generally well informed and just trying to use some common sense. You probably pay a bit more for that milk than at the supermarket, right? Most people in your country don't do what you do, they buy it at the supermarket. The dairy products at the supermarket simply don't come from those farms. Do you think it would be possible for everyone in your city to consume milk that way? Would there be enough farms to produce enough dairy that way at a reasonable price that most people would be ready to pay? I'm going to guess that probably not that would not be sustainable. Still, in the end, the economic incentives for that farmer to produce more milk are the same. The farmer would be incentivized to use better milk yielding cows, get rid of the males, feed the cheapest possible food to the animals.
- spion 7y ago
  Some things only really make sense in the US due to the heavy subsidizing of corn. You should definitely double-check your common sense, just in case (I'll check mine too)
  - vfc1 7y ago
    Just checked. Apparently, one 5th of the EU budget goes to support livestock - https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/feb/12/nearly-a-fifth-of-eu-budget-goes-on-livestock-farming-greenpeace https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/feb/12/nearly-a... A lot of it under the form of crop subsidies: > This land, and other targeted subsidies for livestock, is worth between €28-€32bn (£24-£27.9bn) in CAP direct payments per year for the animal farming sector, 18-20% of the EU’s total budget. That seems like pretty heavy subsidizing to me, although in the US I have the impression that things are worse. I think a lot of the europeans perception of the livestock industry comes from advertising, all those pictures on the supermarket of happy farmers next to happy cows and pigs, I think that's where a lot of it comes from.
    - spion 7y ago
      No, thats not true. AFAIK industrial scale beef farming has only started recently in the UK, for example. https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/may/29/revealed-industrial-scale-beef-farming-comes-to-the-uk https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/may/29/revealed...
- piffey 7y ago
  > Still, in the end, the economic incentives for that farmer to produce more milk are the same. The farmer would be incentivized to use better milk yielding cows, get rid of the males, feed the cheapest possible food to the animals. American here, but I feel like this has to be a very American ideal. Scandinavian countries have this idea of Lagom which is a sort of balance that's right for everything. Italians have this idea of high quality ingredients nurtured in the best way. French have this idea of doing things the exact old way and protecting that. Sure there are places in those societies still for factory farming, but the ethos that profit must rise above all reasoning is something I only see in my culture.
  - vfc1 7y ago
    I'm from Europe, the culture is I bet a bit different but the laws of economics still apply. If a farmer can produce the same product in larger volumes and cheaper, it will have an advantage over the competition and start taking a bigger share of the market. The competition will catch up, etc. it's the same thing. But there is this very powerful marketing message that these things only happen in the US, which is not at all true. It's all these pictures of happy cows and farmers at the supermarket, that create an unrealistic perception of how animals are raised.
hombre_fatal 7y ago
So, because you indulge in some tiny fringe practice -- the same thing my dad does in the USA --, you think "all of Europe" doesn't just buy milk in the supermarket?

moby_click 7y ago

Inherent to dairy production is regular impregnation and separating the calves. Just like the egg industry, market pressure favors more "productive" genetics, which results in males basically being discarded early in life, and shorter productive life with higher output for the females. Increasing animal welfare(, for lack of a better term,) results in higher environmental impact, because slower growth, longer lives and less conversion, require more feed and produce more emissions. At least globally - locally, large-scale concentrated operations have a high impact. I can speak for southern Germany where there are still many small farms in villages. Due to space constraints, those businesses have to extract as much as possible out of every animal. I only have german sources, but this is what those stalls can look like: https://www.ariwa.org/leben-in-ketten-video/ https://www.ariwa.org/leben-in-ketten-video/ The text says that cows are tethered like this for months or even years (basically their whole life). It's estimated that this affects about 1 million or about a quarter of the german dairy cows. I think the Matrix would compare favorably to this.