7 ms·

One thing implies the other, as it's impossible to produce enough dairy for so many people using the methods you mention, that is why most dairy people consume

by vfc1 7y ago

One thing implies the other, as it's impossible to produce enough dairy for so many people using the methods you mention, that is why most dairy people consume comes from factory farms in the first place. Dairy price would sky-rocket and become a luxury item, and few people would be able to afford it several times a day every day, as its so common today.

throwawayfjlo 7y ago
European countries don't do any of the things described in GP yet most of us drink cheap milk everyday so something must be off in your analysis
- vfc1 7y ago
  There is this common internet illusion that these things only happen in the US. It's a myth, of course, it absolutely happens in Europe too and everywhere in the western world. How could it not, its economics and its a business. The goal is to produce the maximum amount of dairy at the lowest possible price, to fulfill an ever-increasing demand. Maybe the agricultural factories are usually not of the same size as in the US, but the techniques and the consequences are the same.
  - throwawaygkdpvp 7y ago
    I regularly order locally-produced milk from very small scale farmers that don't use any of the things you mention and it's nearly not the cost of a luxury item. I live in a huge city, too. So something must be off in what you're saying. I don't know why you show such certainty of tone, are you a specialist?
    - vfc1 7y ago
      > I regularly order locally-produced milk from very small scale farmers Not a specialist here, but I think I'm generally well informed and just trying to use some common sense. You probably pay a bit more for that milk than at the supermarket, right? Most people in your country don't do what you do, they buy it at the supermarket. The dairy products at the supermarket simply don't come from those farms. Do you think it would be possible for everyone in your city to consume milk that way? Would there be enough farms to produce enough dairy that way at a reasonable price that most people would be ready to pay? I'm going to guess that probably not that would not be sustainable. Still, in the end, the economic incentives for that farmer to produce more milk are the same. The farmer would be incentivized to use better milk yielding cows, get rid of the males, feed the cheapest possible food to the animals.
      - spion 7y ago
        Some things only really make sense in the US due to the heavy subsidizing of corn. You should definitely double-check your common sense, just in case (I'll check mine too)
        vfc1 7y ago
        Just checked. Apparently, one 5th of the EU budget goes to support livestock - https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/feb/12/nearly-a-fifth-of-eu-budget-goes-on-livestock-farming-greenpeace https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/feb/12/nearly-a... A lot of it under the form of crop subsidies: > This land, and other targeted subsidies for livestock, is worth between €28-€32bn (£24-£27.9bn) in CAP direct payments per year for the animal farming sector, 18-20% of the EU’s total budget. That seems like pretty heavy subsidizing to me, although in the US I have the impression that things are worse. I think a lot of the europeans perception of the livestock industry comes from advertising, all those pictures on the supermarket of happy farmers next to happy cows and pigs, I think that's where a lot of it comes from.
        spion 7y ago
        No, thats not true. AFAIK industrial scale beef farming has only started recently in the UK, for example. https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/may/29/revealed-industrial-scale-beef-farming-comes-to-the-uk https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/may/29/revealed...
      - piffey 7y ago
        > Still, in the end, the economic incentives for that farmer to produce more milk are the same. The farmer would be incentivized to use better milk yielding cows, get rid of the males, feed the cheapest possible food to the animals. American here, but I feel like this has to be a very American ideal. Scandinavian countries have this idea of Lagom which is a sort of balance that's right for everything. Italians have this idea of high quality ingredients nurtured in the best way. French have this idea of doing things the exact old way and protecting that. Sure there are places in those societies still for factory farming, but the ethos that profit must rise above all reasoning is something I only see in my culture.
    - hombre_fatal 7y ago
      So, because you indulge in some tiny fringe practice -- the same thing my dad does in the USA --, you think "all of Europe" doesn't just buy milk in the supermarket?
  - moby_click 7y ago
    Inherent to dairy production is regular impregnation and separating the calves. Just like the egg industry, market pressure favors more "productive" genetics, which results in males basically being discarded early in life, and shorter productive life with higher output for the females. Increasing animal welfare(, for lack of a better term,) results in higher environmental impact, because slower growth, longer lives and less conversion, require more feed and produce more emissions. At least globally - locally, large-scale concentrated operations have a high impact. I can speak for southern Germany where there are still many small farms in villages. Due to space constraints, those businesses have to extract as much as possible out of every animal. I only have german sources, but this is what those stalls can look like: https://www.ariwa.org/leben-in-ketten-video/ https://www.ariwa.org/leben-in-ketten-video/ The text says that cows are tethered like this for months or even years (basically their whole life). It's estimated that this affects about 1 million or about a quarter of the german dairy cows. I think the Matrix would compare favorably to this.
lmilcin 7y ago
> One thing implies the other, as it's impossible to produce enough dairy for so many people using the methods you mention, that is why most dairy people consume comes from factory farms in the first place. This is simply not true. What you probably mean is it is not possible to achieve the same results while not caring how it is done (ie. going about our lives). Throughout the history people relied on dairy way more than today. In some places it was almost life or death as during winter grain and dairy was the only feed available. Of course, today, you don't want to spend your entire day tending cows and the field. But don't try to imply that our way of life is the only one possible. There exists whole industry of keeping cows and producing diary in humane way. It costs more, true, but not nearly as much as to make it impractical. It is simply our choice -- people choose the cheapest product the cows be damned.
- vfc1 7y ago
  > There exists whole industry of keeping cows and producing diary in humane way. These are usually market gimmicks. They say a cow is pastured raised if they leave it out an hour a day, grass-fed if it gets fed half the diet in grass the other in grains, etc. The costs of raising cattle and producing dairy in that way would simply not allow to meet the demand and it will never happen. Factory farms are the reality of what it takes to produce dairy for so many people. Ultimately, in the end the result the animal dies a horrible death after having lived often a horrible live, so there is nothing humane about that.
  - aphextim 7y ago
    I always get my dairy local. Where I live I am lucky enough to have a family farm that services our area. The nice thing is that their milk isn't that much more than any of the name brands. Maybe 50 cents a gallon. You can tour their farms and watch the process and they are very open about it. http://debackerfamilydairy.com/ http://debackerfamilydairy.com/ If we had more of these local farms servicing more areas it would definitely help reduce reliance on factory farms. If you live in an urban/highly populated area I don't see anyway for a small farm like this to produce enough for the population.
netcan 7y ago
This is just untrue. Dairy was not produced differently in some ancient past. It's produced differently today, in many places, and recently even in the states. Factory farms have small cost advantages and (imo more significantly) financing advantages. Non-corporate farmers can't tap into private equity markets, bond markets and whatnot like corporate farms can. Anyway, decent farming is as possible today as ever, even moreso. Dairy would not be a luxury item, it would cost slightly more.
downtide 7y ago
It is a luxury item. In the UK dairy and meat get subsidised. A pack of sausages cost the same as a red pepper. Go figure! At the same time farmers here moan that they aren't getting enough money per pint. They are at a loss. Meanwhile some luxury oat milk costs £1.80 a litre. The plant milks are a nightmare when you consider transportation. Be nicer to have local bottling of these alternatives. At least traditionally dairy farms were a little more localised and smaller.
benj111 7y ago
Milk costs me £1.10 / 4 pints. So that's $2.36/US gallon (why 6.6614 pints in a gallon, why not a round number??? Edit: US pints are different and smaller. 8 US pints in a US gallon) That seems to compare favourably with US prices. https://www.walmart.com/ip/Great-Value-2-Reduced-Fat-Milk-1-Gallon-128-Fl-Oz/10450115 https://www.walmart.com/ip/Great-Value-2-Reduced-Fat-Milk-1-... That's for grass fed cows that are free to roam outside.

by vfc1 7y ago

throwawayfjlo 7y ago

European countries don't do any of the things described in GP yet most of us drink cheap milk everyday so something must be off in your analysis

vfc1 7y ago
There is this common internet illusion that these things only happen in the US. It's a myth, of course, it absolutely happens in Europe too and everywhere in the western world. How could it not, its economics and its a business. The goal is to produce the maximum amount of dairy at the lowest possible price, to fulfill an ever-increasing demand. Maybe the agricultural factories are usually not of the same size as in the US, but the techniques and the consequences are the same.
- throwawaygkdpvp 7y ago
  I regularly order locally-produced milk from very small scale farmers that don't use any of the things you mention and it's nearly not the cost of a luxury item. I live in a huge city, too. So something must be off in what you're saying. I don't know why you show such certainty of tone, are you a specialist?
  - vfc1 7y ago
    > I regularly order locally-produced milk from very small scale farmers Not a specialist here, but I think I'm generally well informed and just trying to use some common sense. You probably pay a bit more for that milk than at the supermarket, right? Most people in your country don't do what you do, they buy it at the supermarket. The dairy products at the supermarket simply don't come from those farms. Do you think it would be possible for everyone in your city to consume milk that way? Would there be enough farms to produce enough dairy that way at a reasonable price that most people would be ready to pay? I'm going to guess that probably not that would not be sustainable. Still, in the end, the economic incentives for that farmer to produce more milk are the same. The farmer would be incentivized to use better milk yielding cows, get rid of the males, feed the cheapest possible food to the animals.
    - spion 7y ago
      Some things only really make sense in the US due to the heavy subsidizing of corn. You should definitely double-check your common sense, just in case (I'll check mine too)
      - vfc1 7y ago
        Just checked. Apparently, one 5th of the EU budget goes to support livestock - https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/feb/12/nearly-a-fifth-of-eu-budget-goes-on-livestock-farming-greenpeace https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/feb/12/nearly-a... A lot of it under the form of crop subsidies: > This land, and other targeted subsidies for livestock, is worth between €28-€32bn (£24-£27.9bn) in CAP direct payments per year for the animal farming sector, 18-20% of the EU’s total budget. That seems like pretty heavy subsidizing to me, although in the US I have the impression that things are worse. I think a lot of the europeans perception of the livestock industry comes from advertising, all those pictures on the supermarket of happy farmers next to happy cows and pigs, I think that's where a lot of it comes from.
        spion 7y ago
        No, thats not true. AFAIK industrial scale beef farming has only started recently in the UK, for example. https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/may/29/revealed-industrial-scale-beef-farming-comes-to-the-uk https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/may/29/revealed...
    - piffey 7y ago
      > Still, in the end, the economic incentives for that farmer to produce more milk are the same. The farmer would be incentivized to use better milk yielding cows, get rid of the males, feed the cheapest possible food to the animals. American here, but I feel like this has to be a very American ideal. Scandinavian countries have this idea of Lagom which is a sort of balance that's right for everything. Italians have this idea of high quality ingredients nurtured in the best way. French have this idea of doing things the exact old way and protecting that. Sure there are places in those societies still for factory farming, but the ethos that profit must rise above all reasoning is something I only see in my culture.
  - hombre_fatal 7y ago
    So, because you indulge in some tiny fringe practice -- the same thing my dad does in the USA --, you think "all of Europe" doesn't just buy milk in the supermarket?
- moby_click 7y ago
  Inherent to dairy production is regular impregnation and separating the calves. Just like the egg industry, market pressure favors more "productive" genetics, which results in males basically being discarded early in life, and shorter productive life with higher output for the females. Increasing animal welfare(, for lack of a better term,) results in higher environmental impact, because slower growth, longer lives and less conversion, require more feed and produce more emissions. At least globally - locally, large-scale concentrated operations have a high impact. I can speak for southern Germany where there are still many small farms in villages. Due to space constraints, those businesses have to extract as much as possible out of every animal. I only have german sources, but this is what those stalls can look like: https://www.ariwa.org/leben-in-ketten-video/ https://www.ariwa.org/leben-in-ketten-video/ The text says that cows are tethered like this for months or even years (basically their whole life). It's estimated that this affects about 1 million or about a quarter of the german dairy cows. I think the Matrix would compare favorably to this.

lmilcin 7y ago

> One thing implies the other, as it's impossible to produce enough dairy for so many people using the methods you mention, that is why most dairy people consume comes from factory farms in the first place. This is simply not true. What you probably mean is it is not possible to achieve the same results while not caring how it is done (ie. going about our lives). Throughout the history people relied on dairy way more than today. In some places it was almost life or death as during winter grain and dairy was the only feed available. Of course, today, you don't want to spend your entire day tending cows and the field. But don't try to imply that our way of life is the only one possible. There exists whole industry of keeping cows and producing diary in humane way. It costs more, true, but not nearly as much as to make it impractical. It is simply our choice -- people choose the cheapest product the cows be damned.

vfc1 7y ago
> There exists whole industry of keeping cows and producing diary in humane way. These are usually market gimmicks. They say a cow is pastured raised if they leave it out an hour a day, grass-fed if it gets fed half the diet in grass the other in grains, etc. The costs of raising cattle and producing dairy in that way would simply not allow to meet the demand and it will never happen. Factory farms are the reality of what it takes to produce dairy for so many people. Ultimately, in the end the result the animal dies a horrible death after having lived often a horrible live, so there is nothing humane about that.
- aphextim 7y ago
  I always get my dairy local. Where I live I am lucky enough to have a family farm that services our area. The nice thing is that their milk isn't that much more than any of the name brands. Maybe 50 cents a gallon. You can tour their farms and watch the process and they are very open about it. http://debackerfamilydairy.com/ http://debackerfamilydairy.com/ If we had more of these local farms servicing more areas it would definitely help reduce reliance on factory farms. If you live in an urban/highly populated area I don't see anyway for a small farm like this to produce enough for the population.

netcan 7y ago

This is just untrue. Dairy was not produced differently in some ancient past. It's produced differently today, in many places, and recently even in the states. Factory farms have small cost advantages and (imo more significantly) financing advantages. Non-corporate farmers can't tap into private equity markets, bond markets and whatnot like corporate farms can. Anyway, decent farming is as possible today as ever, even moreso. Dairy would not be a luxury item, it would cost slightly more.

downtide 7y ago

It is a luxury item. In the UK dairy and meat get subsidised. A pack of sausages cost the same as a red pepper. Go figure! At the same time farmers here moan that they aren't getting enough money per pint. They are at a loss. Meanwhile some luxury oat milk costs £1.80 a litre. The plant milks are a nightmare when you consider transportation. Be nicer to have local bottling of these alternatives. At least traditionally dairy farms were a little more localised and smaller.

benj111 7y ago

Milk costs me £1.10 / 4 pints. So that's $2.36/US gallon (why 6.6614 pints in a gallon, why not a round number??? Edit: US pints are different and smaller. 8 US pints in a US gallon) That seems to compare favourably with US prices. https://www.walmart.com/ip/Great-Value-2-Reduced-Fat-Milk-1-Gallon-128-Fl-Oz/10450115 https://www.walmart.com/ip/Great-Value-2-Reduced-Fat-Milk-1-... That's for grass fed cows that are free to roam outside.