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OK, to the two people who have downmodded my post, please clarify. This is a serious question: I don't understand why people who don't buy Apple products compla

OK, to the two people who have downmodded my post, please clarify. This is a serious question: I don't understand why people who don't buy Apple products complain about Apple. It's not like they completely control the marketplace -- so what's the point (other than whining)?

glhaynes 16y ago
I concur. If anything, they provide tremendous innovation that then can be copied in more open ways. If not for the iPhone, there's no way the rest of the cell phone marketplace would look like it does right now.
orangecat 16y ago
It's not like they completely control the marketplace A year ago it was a real possibility that they would dominate mobile computing (soon to be just "computing"), and even today it's not out of the question if Android lawsuits go badly. I and plenty of others don't want to see a world where we're denied control of "our" hardware, and told we're criminals if we try to reclaim it.
- bphogan 16y ago
  I was under the impression that, at least in the US, it was now legal to jailbreak your hardware. http://news.yahoo.com/s/ytech_wguy/ytech_wguy_tc3236 http://news.yahoo.com/s/ytech_wguy/ytech_wguy_tc3236 Did something change?
  - orangecat 16y ago
    It's not a DMCA violation, but it does violate the EULA, the legal ramifications of which are unclear. And of course it also voids your warranty.
cryptoz 16y ago
I didn't vote you down, but I'll comment on the issue. First: > Why? Why do all companies have to operate the way you want them to and why do you have to buy their things? klochner never said companies "have" to operate a certain way. He just said that a company annoys him. That's all. He said nothing about how the company "should" or "must" operate. Just that the current model was annoying. Second: > I don't understand why people who don't buy Apple products complain about Apple. For the same reason that people who don't run Windows complain about Microsoft. Apple and Microsoft are defining forces in their industries. Even people who don't buy their products are massively affected by the actions of those companies. Examples: I don't own Windows or Office, so for years I could not reliably open .doc files. [1] Microsoft's proprietary file formats affect those who don't have enough money / don't wish to purchase their products. I don't own any iOS devices, but I am a software developer. If the future of computing moves to iPad-like devices (say, tablets, phones, whatever the future brings), Apple's closed model affects me greatly. I would be less capable of selling my own software due to their practices. Microsoft doesn't demand money from you if you want to develop for Windows. Apple does demand money from you if you want to develop for iOS (and seeing as iOS will soon - or already has - gained more users that OS X, I believe this is a fair comparison). This is not a good model for the future of computing, but it is the model Apple is using and they are a powerful force. So even though I do not own any Apple products, they are a dominating force in the industry and what they do matters to me. Edit: [1] I think that .doc is now an "open" standard, right? LibreOffice will probably eventually be fully compatible, but it's not ready yet.
- bphogan 16y ago
  Microsoft doesn't charge you to develop for their PCs and neither does Apple. However, if you'd like to develop for the XBox or the Windows 7 phone, you are under almost the same terms as Apple. This is something Apple pioneered, and you can bet other companies are going to want a slice of that sweet sweet revenue pie.
  - cryptoz 16y ago
    > Microsoft doesn't charge you to develop for their PCs and neither does Apple. Yes I know, I tried to address that in my comment. I postulated that there are more iOS users than OS X users, just as there are more Windows users than XBox or WP7 users. For the purposes of my example, I picked the OS from each company with the greatest number of users. I definitely think my example is valid here, despite the differences between "PCs" and tablets, phones, whatever.
  - micampe 16y ago
    > This is something Apple pioneered Not at all, ask any console game developer.
- andolanra 16y ago
  I think you're getting at the real objection a lot of people have to Apple, which is that they're such a big and powerful force in the market that their practices can make a particular strategy seem normal. While the reasoning behind keeping software ecosystems and physical hardware closed is actually good—keeping out the well-meaning but poorly-trained developers and amateur tinkerers who want to "repair" or "upgrade" your hardware, not to mention enforcing the consistent user experience as mentioned in the article—those practices also have other effects which are troubling in the long-term, which is what a lot of "techies" object to. I am not in Apple's market, so their practices don't affect me directly as a user. However, their practices do affect me in that having one of the largest, most successful companies in the world engage in what I see as problematic practices tells other companies that it's a good, or at least tenable, idea. In the future, a fledgling company could see a choice between the Pro-Consumer But Difficult path and the Closed Everything But Simple path, and think, "Well, Apple did it, so I guess if we do it, it's okay." And that's why I find Apple troubling.
tdoggette 16y ago
I want a nice, high-quality laptop or smartphone with hardware designed by the very best, and good production values from start to finish. I can't really get that from anyone but Apple. I've got a Thinkpad, but even that very nice machine is in a lower class of industrial design compared to Apple products. Likewise, my HTC Incredible is a great phone, but bits of it are clearly of lower quality than my friends' iPhone 4s. That's why some of Apple's practices annoy me-- because they're so damn good at everything else, they tempt me anyway.
klochner 16y ago
I think you got downmodded for whining about other people whining - clearly you have no problem complaining about things you don't like, so let us do the same. FWIW, I buy and love apple products, I just like to tinker as well.
- Locke1689 16y ago
  For the most part I only whine about things I use. I also don't expect people to take me seriously when I whine about the things I don't use. I obviously don't use it because it doesn't suit me, so why would I be a credible source for whining about it?

glhaynes 16y ago

I concur. If anything, they provide tremendous innovation that then can be copied in more open ways. If not for the iPhone, there's no way the rest of the cell phone marketplace would look like it does right now.

orangecat 16y ago

It's not like they completely control the marketplace A year ago it was a real possibility that they would dominate mobile computing (soon to be just "computing"), and even today it's not out of the question if Android lawsuits go badly. I and plenty of others don't want to see a world where we're denied control of "our" hardware, and told we're criminals if we try to reclaim it.

bphogan 16y ago
I was under the impression that, at least in the US, it was now legal to jailbreak your hardware. http://news.yahoo.com/s/ytech_wguy/ytech_wguy_tc3236 http://news.yahoo.com/s/ytech_wguy/ytech_wguy_tc3236 Did something change?
- orangecat 16y ago
  It's not a DMCA violation, but it does violate the EULA, the legal ramifications of which are unclear. And of course it also voids your warranty.

cryptoz 16y ago

I didn't vote you down, but I'll comment on the issue. First: > Why? Why do all companies have to operate the way you want them to and why do you have to buy their things? klochner never said companies "have" to operate a certain way. He just said that a company annoys him. That's all. He said nothing about how the company "should" or "must" operate. Just that the current model was annoying. Second: > I don't understand why people who don't buy Apple products complain about Apple. For the same reason that people who don't run Windows complain about Microsoft. Apple and Microsoft are defining forces in their industries. Even people who don't buy their products are massively affected by the actions of those companies. Examples: I don't own Windows or Office, so for years I could not reliably open .doc files. [1] Microsoft's proprietary file formats affect those who don't have enough money / don't wish to purchase their products. I don't own any iOS devices, but I am a software developer. If the future of computing moves to iPad-like devices (say, tablets, phones, whatever the future brings), Apple's closed model affects me greatly. I would be less capable of selling my own software due to their practices. Microsoft doesn't demand money from you if you want to develop for Windows. Apple does demand money from you if you want to develop for iOS (and seeing as iOS will soon - or already has - gained more users that OS X, I believe this is a fair comparison). This is not a good model for the future of computing, but it is the model Apple is using and they are a powerful force. So even though I do not own any Apple products, they are a dominating force in the industry and what they do matters to me. Edit: [1] I think that .doc is now an "open" standard, right? LibreOffice will probably eventually be fully compatible, but it's not ready yet.

bphogan 16y ago
Microsoft doesn't charge you to develop for their PCs and neither does Apple. However, if you'd like to develop for the XBox or the Windows 7 phone, you are under almost the same terms as Apple. This is something Apple pioneered, and you can bet other companies are going to want a slice of that sweet sweet revenue pie.
- cryptoz 16y ago
  > Microsoft doesn't charge you to develop for their PCs and neither does Apple. Yes I know, I tried to address that in my comment. I postulated that there are more iOS users than OS X users, just as there are more Windows users than XBox or WP7 users. For the purposes of my example, I picked the OS from each company with the greatest number of users. I definitely think my example is valid here, despite the differences between "PCs" and tablets, phones, whatever.
- micampe 16y ago
  > This is something Apple pioneered Not at all, ask any console game developer.
andolanra 16y ago
I think you're getting at the real objection a lot of people have to Apple, which is that they're such a big and powerful force in the market that their practices can make a particular strategy seem normal. While the reasoning behind keeping software ecosystems and physical hardware closed is actually good—keeping out the well-meaning but poorly-trained developers and amateur tinkerers who want to "repair" or "upgrade" your hardware, not to mention enforcing the consistent user experience as mentioned in the article—those practices also have other effects which are troubling in the long-term, which is what a lot of "techies" object to. I am not in Apple's market, so their practices don't affect me directly as a user. However, their practices do affect me in that having one of the largest, most successful companies in the world engage in what I see as problematic practices tells other companies that it's a good, or at least tenable, idea. In the future, a fledgling company could see a choice between the Pro-Consumer But Difficult path and the Closed Everything But Simple path, and think, "Well, Apple did it, so I guess if we do it, it's okay." And that's why I find Apple troubling.

tdoggette 16y ago

I want a nice, high-quality laptop or smartphone with hardware designed by the very best, and good production values from start to finish. I can't really get that from anyone but Apple. I've got a Thinkpad, but even that very nice machine is in a lower class of industrial design compared to Apple products. Likewise, my HTC Incredible is a great phone, but bits of it are clearly of lower quality than my friends' iPhone 4s. That's why some of Apple's practices annoy me-- because they're so damn good at everything else, they tempt me anyway.

klochner 16y ago

I think you got downmodded for whining about other people whining - clearly you have no problem complaining about things you don't like, so let us do the same. FWIW, I buy and love apple products, I just like to tinker as well.

Locke1689 16y ago
For the most part I only whine about things I use. I also don't expect people to take me seriously when I whine about the things I don't use. I obviously don't use it because it doesn't suit me, so why would I be a credible source for whining about it?