7 ms·

No, they don't become stupid. But their view of the uses of computers changes. Everyone reading this post is in the top 5% in terms of computer skill. The ma

No, they don't become stupid. But their view of the uses of computers changes. Everyone reading this post is in the top 5% in terms of computer skill. The majority of the friends of everyone reading this post are in the top 25% in terms of computer skill. It gives a very warped perspective of the "average computer user". You know that guy who's still getting the hang of EBay and Amazon and who Googles URLs instead of typing them? He's the average computer user[1]. Which means half of all computer users are less capable than him. For instance, consider the sentence "Angry Birds is lots of fun - you should get it from their website, they take paypal"[2]. To HNers that's incredibly straightforward and simple - (1) Google "Angry Birds", (2) make sure it's a legit site, (3) look for the "Buy" button, (4) check out, (5) enter your paypal information, and (6) install the game. To me (and most HNers, I'd imagine), the hardest part of that is "what was my PayPal password again?", but to the average computer user, that's a confusing 30 minutes, part of which will be spent on an ornithology site. It's for that average user that things like the Mac App Store and locked-down phones were designed. The point of this long, meandering post is that the reason techies have issues analyzing Apple's strategy is because they mis-over-estimate the skill of the average computer user, for the totally understandable reason that they're surrounded by people with well-above-average computer skills. [1] - Probably hyperbole, but not by much. [2] - I've actually never played Angry Birds.

bad_user 16y ago
Everyone reading this post is in the top 5% in terms of computer skill Yeah, pat yourself on the back, you're smart. who's still getting the hang of EBay and Amazon, who Googles URLs instead of typing them Never used EBay, never bought anything from Amazon and I also Google for URLs from time to time ... pretty sweat if you can't remember the exact string. techies ... mis-over-estimate the skill of the average computer user I actually think we underestimate the "average" computer user more often than not. Apple's products are not idiot proof. The iPhone itself does take some time before you become productive with it. But they make the learning process fun and they respect their customers enough to not make them feel like idiots. Also, there is no such thing as an "average" computer user, as that would mean some kind of common-denominator, which would be false since all people have different personalities / skills. I've actually never played Angry Birds. The game is free of charge in the Android market. Search for it and click install.
- calloc 16y ago
  > Yeah, pat yourself on the back, you're smart. He put you into that same category ... > Never used EBay, never bought anything from Amazon and I also Google for URLs from time to time ... pretty sweat if you can't remember the exact string. He is referring to people that type "facebook" into google to go Facebook.com. He is making a generalised statement. Generally to present an argument or point it is okay to make generalised statements to help bring a point across. > I actually think we underestimate the "average" computer user more often than not. I tend to overestimate them, to each their own. Who are you qualifying as "we" here anyhow? Clearly I don't belong in your "we". > Apple's products are not idiot proof. The iPhone itself does take some time before you become productive with it. But they make the learning process fun and they respect their customers enough to not make them feel like idiots. No, not idiot proof but they are easy enough to pick up and start using by just playing, click on options, turn stuff on and off, download new apps to play with, hit the home button and back you are in familiar territory. The same could not be said for some other pieces of software. It took me a while to figure out how the Zune worked for instance, it wasn't intuitive like my iPod was. > Also, there is no such thing as an "average" computer user, as that would mean some kind of common-denominator, which would be false since all people have different personalities / skills. "average computer user" is used in the same manner as "average person" or the "average child" (such as "the average child at age 10 can read X").
- randallsquared 16y ago
  > > who Googles URLs instead of typing the > I also Google for URLs from time to time Of course, typing "facebook.com" into Google and clicking on the first result (which, of course, is "facebook.com") is not really the same thing as typing "facebook privacy" into Google to get a quick link to the facebook privacy policy. One of these is convenient, and the other one just adds a step. It's the difference between googling for a URL, and googling a URL. Adding the "for" obfuscates.
- ZachPruckowski 16y ago
  >Yeah, pat yourself on the back, you're smart. Not just me, everyone who regularly posts on a niche board about programming and entrepreneurship. Maybe my original statement was hyperbole, but it's not crazy to say that people who voluntarily seek out conversations on the value of OOP are more tech literate than the average. Similarly, if we were on a website catering towards people trying out for minor-league baseball teams, the audience would mostly be in the top 5% in terms of athleticism. And for the record, I'm probably the dumbest guy here, and I freely admit it. >Never used EBay, never bought anything from Amazon and I also Google for URLs from time to time ... pretty sweat if you can't remember the exact string. You're trying to misread me here. There are people for whom "order tickets online" is a major accomplishment, akin to cleaning out the garage. Once, a ReadWriteWeb article[1] overtook Facebook in the Google search for "facebook login" (w/o quotes). It resulted in thousands of people commenting on the article trying to log into facebook. I'm not saying "can't tell RWW and Facebook apart" is average, but I am saying that that's a rare occurrence. >Apple's products are not idiot proof. Of course not. But the flipside of the file structure and CLI on an iPhone being locked away is that users can't accidentally do something to their System directory. And locked-down, reviewed applications means fewer compatibility issues and fewer misbehaving apps slowing things down. [1] - http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/facebook_wants_to_be_your_one_true_login.php http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/facebook_wants_to_be_yo...
madaxe 16y ago
I'm a techie. I use a mac. I have an iPhone. I love the devices I have from apple. Apple's strategy is not one of creating hardware. It isn't one of creating software. It's one of creating a digital ecosystem which interoperates with almost magical fluidity. I'd consider myself to be in the top percentile in terms of technical ability worldwide - fine, sounds like bragging, but there are precious few people on this earth who know code from machine to assembly to a few dozen high-level languages, and also know how to build large, highly redundant and highly available systems. I know others like me - and the vast majority of them use apple hardware and software for their daily computing needs. The reason? When you're ascending, and you're in that top 5%, you're still at the point where you want to tinker with everything. You want to switch motherboards. You want to upgrade your graphics card. You want to build a custom firmware for your phone just because. Eventually, you master those skills, and you move on - you move into industry, or you move into an area of expertise in which you don't want to have to worry about whether you've got enough cooling on your overclocked GPU. The point is - apple make some of the best tools out there. The iPhone just works. Sure, you can't run custom, unvetted code on there, but the code you can run on it does what it says on the can and does it damned well. Sure, upgrading a mac is a pain in the jacksie, but those elements which you'd reasonably want to upgrade within the lifecycle, you can, easily. As for reliability? In the organisation I run, we have a 50/50-ish split between commodity hardware (think dell) and apple machines. The overall failure rate is roughly even between the two, and given that all of the macs are laptops, I think it's a fair cop. Summary: apple make tools. They make tools which work for everybody from total noobs to über-leets. Plenty of people don't get this. One day they will. Therefore this doesn't matter.
- kunjaan 16y ago
  There are a lot of anecdotal evidences supporting your arguments. Most of us agree that some of the Mac computers are a benchmark for buying PCs. I personally think MacOS is a fantastic OS. BUT the core argument here is regarding iPhone and what I think as a downside to buying it like its markets policies, objective-c, hurdle to develop an application in my PC. And why buying Android makes it more appealing to developers like me. I love my custom hardware, I love the ability to develop application that I want and just run it, I love interfacing Android to my Arduino, I love running my friends hacks on my Android. 1. You claim the reason why vast majority of proficient system designers use Apple because the designers would somehow not want custom hardware even if he is displeased with the product and would find such a task of customizing worrisome. The only user statistics you provide for such a claim is from the pool of your friends. 2. Then you go on to say Apple makes the "best tools out there" because "iPhone just works". Like they say define "works". I think no designer is all knowing to encompass every user base out there. That is why you have customizations, extension techniques and abstraction layers. The language layer extension is a amazing abstraction. You agree that "You can't run custom, unvetted code on there". For some of us that is a HUGE deal. My friends and I write apps all the time. Imagine a device that is packed with a good processor, a camera, bluetooth, touch screen, accelerometer, compass, runs on Linux and can connect to the Internet. It has an open source SDK, open source OS, open source VM. Fuck how could you NOT want to tinker with them? Sorry I degrade to emotional arguments. But seriously, this is a HUGE aspect of it. 3. "you can run on it does what it says on the can and does it damned well." Well so far what you have wanted it to do has been fulfilled and never had a need for extension. Maybe there were times when you thought of improving something but just let that thought pass. What it says on the can is a phone but we all agree it is more than that. It is a freaking powerful computing system. 4. You then argue for system reliability by comparing Macs with Dell PCs. I can't speak for either but can you make such generalizations on iPhone vs Android phones? 5. Then you ended up with what made me write this long rant. "Plenty of people don't get this. One day they will. Therefore this doesn't matter." I would argue that most of the people who buy iPhone would never be excited from the things I can do on Android. I would trade all of that "apple experience" to what I can do on Droid. Man you should really see what this shit is actually capable of. If you are still into hacking, you will have tons of fun. I majored in electrical and telecommunication engineering in my undegraduate and I went to grad school in order to study computer science. I too understand the computer system abstraction layers and appreciate a good stack.
Tichy 16y ago
The app store is not the problem. Not being in control of your own computer anymore is the problem. And just because techies see problems that non-techies never even consider, are they wrong in issuing the one or other warning? One day it might be too late, and the happy naive non-techies might be in for a rude awakening when somebody has established a monopoly on distribution.
- madaxe 16y ago
  Not being in control of your own computer isn't a problem, so long as you stop thinking of it as your own computer, but as a device that allows you to access content. If you want a computer that allows you to tinker and use it for purposes other than that for which it was originally intended, they'll always be there, because there'll always be a market for it. Apple has a closed ecosystem. That doesn't make it bad, it just makes it controlled. You don't expect to be able to modify the source of facebook, or google, or any other large web service, but you'll happily use it - wherein, fundamentally, lies the difference? Finally, apple's approach to jailbreaking and the like is laudable, insofar as they're basically fine with people doing whatever they want with their hardware, so long as those people are also OK with being excluded from the ecosystem those devices are designed to operate within. I highly doubt that the fact that the original root password on iOS devices was a dictionary word was accidental. As for a monopoly on distribution - not so long ago, the tech community was aflame with panic that microsoft would monopolise everything, and we'd all be fucked in various different imaginary malthusian techno-catastrophes. It didn't happen, microsoft is in decline, and it's because they attempted to enforce their monopoly through legal means rather than through building loyalty through quality. If apple end up with a monopoly because they excel at what they do, it's not necessarily a bad thing, as if they cease to be good at what they do, it'll be nary a heartbeat before the wolves are at the door, building and creating better alternatives.
  - Tichy 16y ago
    "wherein, fundamentally, lies the difference?" I don't want to mess with Google's or Facebook's or Apple's code. I want to publish stuff without having to pay a fee to Apple. Granted, maybe there will always be the Internet, so we have nothing to worry about. In essence, Apple would end up being more like TV, only with more channels. I don't like Google or Facebook becoming monopolies, either.
nikster 16y ago
Time to post the classification of Mac lovers/haters again: - Geeks: Love Apple. Appreciate the superior technology that goes into iOS/Mac OS. bash! - Wannabe geeks: Hate Apple. Their tinkering skills are neither required nor wanted on Mac OS. - Normal people: Love Apple. Appreciate things that just work.
nikster 16y ago
By the way I don't think people who read HN are in the top 5% - think of Facebook's 500 MILLION (!) users. Saying that the people who read HN are in the 0.1% group of computer users would still be optimistic, IMO. The time when geeks were 5% of the web is a very long time ago - 2000-ish, maybe?

bad_user 16y ago

Everyone reading this post is in the top 5% in terms of computer skill Yeah, pat yourself on the back, you're smart. who's still getting the hang of EBay and Amazon, who Googles URLs instead of typing them Never used EBay, never bought anything from Amazon and I also Google for URLs from time to time ... pretty sweat if you can't remember the exact string. techies ... mis-over-estimate the skill of the average computer user I actually think we underestimate the "average" computer user more often than not. Apple's products are not idiot proof. The iPhone itself does take some time before you become productive with it. But they make the learning process fun and they respect their customers enough to not make them feel like idiots. Also, there is no such thing as an "average" computer user, as that would mean some kind of common-denominator, which would be false since all people have different personalities / skills. I've actually never played Angry Birds. The game is free of charge in the Android market. Search for it and click install.

calloc 16y ago
> Yeah, pat yourself on the back, you're smart. He put you into that same category ... > Never used EBay, never bought anything from Amazon and I also Google for URLs from time to time ... pretty sweat if you can't remember the exact string. He is referring to people that type "facebook" into google to go Facebook.com. He is making a generalised statement. Generally to present an argument or point it is okay to make generalised statements to help bring a point across. > I actually think we underestimate the "average" computer user more often than not. I tend to overestimate them, to each their own. Who are you qualifying as "we" here anyhow? Clearly I don't belong in your "we". > Apple's products are not idiot proof. The iPhone itself does take some time before you become productive with it. But they make the learning process fun and they respect their customers enough to not make them feel like idiots. No, not idiot proof but they are easy enough to pick up and start using by just playing, click on options, turn stuff on and off, download new apps to play with, hit the home button and back you are in familiar territory. The same could not be said for some other pieces of software. It took me a while to figure out how the Zune worked for instance, it wasn't intuitive like my iPod was. > Also, there is no such thing as an "average" computer user, as that would mean some kind of common-denominator, which would be false since all people have different personalities / skills. "average computer user" is used in the same manner as "average person" or the "average child" (such as "the average child at age 10 can read X").
randallsquared 16y ago
> > who Googles URLs instead of typing the > I also Google for URLs from time to time Of course, typing "facebook.com" into Google and clicking on the first result (which, of course, is "facebook.com") is not really the same thing as typing "facebook privacy" into Google to get a quick link to the facebook privacy policy. One of these is convenient, and the other one just adds a step. It's the difference between googling for a URL, and googling a URL. Adding the "for" obfuscates.
ZachPruckowski 16y ago
>Yeah, pat yourself on the back, you're smart. Not just me, everyone who regularly posts on a niche board about programming and entrepreneurship. Maybe my original statement was hyperbole, but it's not crazy to say that people who voluntarily seek out conversations on the value of OOP are more tech literate than the average. Similarly, if we were on a website catering towards people trying out for minor-league baseball teams, the audience would mostly be in the top 5% in terms of athleticism. And for the record, I'm probably the dumbest guy here, and I freely admit it. >Never used EBay, never bought anything from Amazon and I also Google for URLs from time to time ... pretty sweat if you can't remember the exact string. You're trying to misread me here. There are people for whom "order tickets online" is a major accomplishment, akin to cleaning out the garage. Once, a ReadWriteWeb article[1] overtook Facebook in the Google search for "facebook login" (w/o quotes). It resulted in thousands of people commenting on the article trying to log into facebook. I'm not saying "can't tell RWW and Facebook apart" is average, but I am saying that that's a rare occurrence. >Apple's products are not idiot proof. Of course not. But the flipside of the file structure and CLI on an iPhone being locked away is that users can't accidentally do something to their System directory. And locked-down, reviewed applications means fewer compatibility issues and fewer misbehaving apps slowing things down. [1] - http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/facebook_wants_to_be_your_one_true_login.php http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/facebook_wants_to_be_yo...

madaxe 16y ago

I'm a techie. I use a mac. I have an iPhone. I love the devices I have from apple. Apple's strategy is not one of creating hardware. It isn't one of creating software. It's one of creating a digital ecosystem which interoperates with almost magical fluidity. I'd consider myself to be in the top percentile in terms of technical ability worldwide - fine, sounds like bragging, but there are precious few people on this earth who know code from machine to assembly to a few dozen high-level languages, and also know how to build large, highly redundant and highly available systems. I know others like me - and the vast majority of them use apple hardware and software for their daily computing needs. The reason? When you're ascending, and you're in that top 5%, you're still at the point where you want to tinker with everything. You want to switch motherboards. You want to upgrade your graphics card. You want to build a custom firmware for your phone just because. Eventually, you master those skills, and you move on - you move into industry, or you move into an area of expertise in which you don't want to have to worry about whether you've got enough cooling on your overclocked GPU. The point is - apple make some of the best tools out there. The iPhone just works. Sure, you can't run custom, unvetted code on there, but the code you can run on it does what it says on the can and does it damned well. Sure, upgrading a mac is a pain in the jacksie, but those elements which you'd reasonably want to upgrade within the lifecycle, you can, easily. As for reliability? In the organisation I run, we have a 50/50-ish split between commodity hardware (think dell) and apple machines. The overall failure rate is roughly even between the two, and given that all of the macs are laptops, I think it's a fair cop. Summary: apple make tools. They make tools which work for everybody from total noobs to über-leets. Plenty of people don't get this. One day they will. Therefore this doesn't matter.

kunjaan 16y ago
There are a lot of anecdotal evidences supporting your arguments. Most of us agree that some of the Mac computers are a benchmark for buying PCs. I personally think MacOS is a fantastic OS. BUT the core argument here is regarding iPhone and what I think as a downside to buying it like its markets policies, objective-c, hurdle to develop an application in my PC. And why buying Android makes it more appealing to developers like me. I love my custom hardware, I love the ability to develop application that I want and just run it, I love interfacing Android to my Arduino, I love running my friends hacks on my Android. 1. You claim the reason why vast majority of proficient system designers use Apple because the designers would somehow not want custom hardware even if he is displeased with the product and would find such a task of customizing worrisome. The only user statistics you provide for such a claim is from the pool of your friends. 2. Then you go on to say Apple makes the "best tools out there" because "iPhone just works". Like they say define "works". I think no designer is all knowing to encompass every user base out there. That is why you have customizations, extension techniques and abstraction layers. The language layer extension is a amazing abstraction. You agree that "You can't run custom, unvetted code on there". For some of us that is a HUGE deal. My friends and I write apps all the time. Imagine a device that is packed with a good processor, a camera, bluetooth, touch screen, accelerometer, compass, runs on Linux and can connect to the Internet. It has an open source SDK, open source OS, open source VM. Fuck how could you NOT want to tinker with them? Sorry I degrade to emotional arguments. But seriously, this is a HUGE aspect of it. 3. "you can run on it does what it says on the can and does it damned well." Well so far what you have wanted it to do has been fulfilled and never had a need for extension. Maybe there were times when you thought of improving something but just let that thought pass. What it says on the can is a phone but we all agree it is more than that. It is a freaking powerful computing system. 4. You then argue for system reliability by comparing Macs with Dell PCs. I can't speak for either but can you make such generalizations on iPhone vs Android phones? 5. Then you ended up with what made me write this long rant. "Plenty of people don't get this. One day they will. Therefore this doesn't matter." I would argue that most of the people who buy iPhone would never be excited from the things I can do on Android. I would trade all of that "apple experience" to what I can do on Droid. Man you should really see what this shit is actually capable of. If you are still into hacking, you will have tons of fun. I majored in electrical and telecommunication engineering in my undegraduate and I went to grad school in order to study computer science. I too understand the computer system abstraction layers and appreciate a good stack.

Tichy 16y ago

The app store is not the problem. Not being in control of your own computer anymore is the problem. And just because techies see problems that non-techies never even consider, are they wrong in issuing the one or other warning? One day it might be too late, and the happy naive non-techies might be in for a rude awakening when somebody has established a monopoly on distribution.

madaxe 16y ago
Not being in control of your own computer isn't a problem, so long as you stop thinking of it as your own computer, but as a device that allows you to access content. If you want a computer that allows you to tinker and use it for purposes other than that for which it was originally intended, they'll always be there, because there'll always be a market for it. Apple has a closed ecosystem. That doesn't make it bad, it just makes it controlled. You don't expect to be able to modify the source of facebook, or google, or any other large web service, but you'll happily use it - wherein, fundamentally, lies the difference? Finally, apple's approach to jailbreaking and the like is laudable, insofar as they're basically fine with people doing whatever they want with their hardware, so long as those people are also OK with being excluded from the ecosystem those devices are designed to operate within. I highly doubt that the fact that the original root password on iOS devices was a dictionary word was accidental. As for a monopoly on distribution - not so long ago, the tech community was aflame with panic that microsoft would monopolise everything, and we'd all be fucked in various different imaginary malthusian techno-catastrophes. It didn't happen, microsoft is in decline, and it's because they attempted to enforce their monopoly through legal means rather than through building loyalty through quality. If apple end up with a monopoly because they excel at what they do, it's not necessarily a bad thing, as if they cease to be good at what they do, it'll be nary a heartbeat before the wolves are at the door, building and creating better alternatives.
- Tichy 16y ago
  "wherein, fundamentally, lies the difference?" I don't want to mess with Google's or Facebook's or Apple's code. I want to publish stuff without having to pay a fee to Apple. Granted, maybe there will always be the Internet, so we have nothing to worry about. In essence, Apple would end up being more like TV, only with more channels. I don't like Google or Facebook becoming monopolies, either.

nikster 16y ago

Time to post the classification of Mac lovers/haters again: - Geeks: Love Apple. Appreciate the superior technology that goes into iOS/Mac OS. bash! - Wannabe geeks: Hate Apple. Their tinkering skills are neither required nor wanted on Mac OS. - Normal people: Love Apple. Appreciate things that just work.

nikster 16y ago

By the way I don't think people who read HN are in the top 5% - think of Facebook's 500 MILLION (!) users. Saying that the people who read HN are in the 0.1% group of computer users would still be optimistic, IMO. The time when geeks were 5% of the web is a very long time ago - 2000-ish, maybe?