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I know it's maybe even the norm, but I can't get my head around this disconnect between doing deep scientific work on the one hand and having such a profoundly

by Udo 7y ago

I know it's maybe even the norm, but I can't get my head around this disconnect between doing deep scientific work on the one hand and having such a profoundly mystical world view that seems to sometimes eschew rational reflections on cause-and-effect. > Why did I live and the rest not live? There are many factors at play. Among those not listed by the author are: age, genetics and biochemical happenstances, and pure random luck. Yet, the question seems to angle for a deeper meaning, as if to evoke the intent of a higher power who lets people live or die for personal or moral reasons. > Was it the amount of toxin? Was it that I knew what had happened to me and sought care and help quickly? Yes. > Was it my meditation/visualization and somatic self care/self help practice? It's been shown that a patient's determination and outlooks do have a noticeable effect on their outcome, so your mental framework may very well have helped here for reasons that are not related to specific practices themselves, but because they have a positive effect on your attitude. > Was it the prayers of my friends and family and my faith? No. And I would object to this even if I was a religious person. The idea that an all-powerful and infinetely wise entity, who decided on the fate of the entire universe well in advance, would change their mind and let someone live on account of the amount of fawning being performed on behalf of that person - that idea is both intellectually and theologically bankrupt. > Was it the doctors’ care? One of them said it was a miracle! Yes, it was the doctors' care, which was most likely necessary to save you. Using a throwaway utterance like this as evidence in support of a miracle-based world view seems self-deceiving. If we're going to assign miracle status to improbable events, it should probably not be those that fall within the 20-50% range. The most disconcerting thing is that we would expect someone whose work involves particle physics to have a better grasp of probabilities, but I think once a person subscribes to the idea of a personalized universe that cares about the conduct of individual humans, a whole different set of rules suddenly comes into play.

SuoDuanDao 7y ago
On the subject of 'prayers from friends and family' being an intellectually and theologically bankrupt theory, here's a meta-study on the phenomenon. https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Cindy_Crawford/publication/10735353_A_systematic_review_of_the_quality_of_research_on_hands-on_and_distance_healing_Clinical_and_laboratory_studies/links/563d12a108ae34e98c4ad363/A-systematic-review-of-the-quality-of-research-on-hands-on-and-distance-healing-Clinical-and-laboratory-studies.pdf https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Cindy_Crawford/publicat...
- Udo 7y ago
  That doesn't address my criticism of the premise. I chose to critique the assertions made of why prayer helps. You address the question of whether it helps. It's one of these "distance healing" prayer studies, and a meta-study at that. If you dig down into any of these data sources, you will find plenty of wishful thinking is involved in the design of the individual studies. But again, whether you believe that it works or not, I wanted to move the discussion to address the claims of why it supposedly works. What I mean by "bankrupt" is the idea that people believe there is an omniscient superintelligence who actively controls the universe on a micro level and takes a direct interest in your personal life choices, who at the same time can be made to change its mind whenever enough people get together to praise it in a transparent attempt to beg for someone's life. Even putting aside the obvious scientific problems with this concept, I call it also theologically bankrupt because - while it's not completely inconceivable that the universe works like that - it still flies in the face of what most religions portray their deities as.
  - hajile 7y ago
    There seems to be a deep misunderstanding of religion here. "Prayer is the opening of the heart to God as to a friend. Not that it is necessary in order to make known to God what we are, but in order to enable us to receive Him. Prayer does not bring God down to us, but brings us up to Him" Just before giving His disciples the Lord's Prayer in the New Testament, Jesus says, "But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking. Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him." Then the prayer itself follows up saying, "After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread. And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen." There's a lot of philosophy tied up in all of that (even for non-Christians). Most people who win the lottery go bankrupt in short order. If you aren't ready for a good thing, it can be destructive. Prayer is an acceptance that God knows what is best for the universe. It helps the person praying to become "in tune" with God's plan and accept that plan no matter if it is personally costly. As you can see, "Begging for someone's life" is a very different mindset. The change in mindset from prayer's self-reflection can instill a positive outlook which improves medical outcomes. If the outcome is terminal, that same self-reflection can help a person reach acceptance and turn their remaining time into a more positive experience (and help with their loved ones after they have passed away). That is all true even if there were nobody listening because they believe it to be true.
kerkeslager 7y ago
> If we're going to assign miracle status to improbable events, it should probably not be those that fall within the 20-50% range. It's telling, for example, that God never heals amputees. This illogic is fairly harmless in the OP's situation--if his belief in a God makes him happy, good for him I guess. But a lot of my atheist friends have had serious accidents or illnesses where religious people have tried to use it as on opportunity to proselytize. "Hey, you survived X horrible event, don't you think that means someone was looking out for you?" Well, if someone is looking out for us, they're doing a crap job, or X horrible event wouldn't have happened in the first place. The last thing I want when I'm lying in a hospital bed in pain is to hear about your imaginary friend.

by Udo 7y ago

SuoDuanDao 7y ago

On the subject of 'prayers from friends and family' being an intellectually and theologically bankrupt theory, here's a meta-study on the phenomenon. https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Cindy_Crawford/publication/10735353_A_systematic_review_of_the_quality_of_research_on_hands-on_and_distance_healing_Clinical_and_laboratory_studies/links/563d12a108ae34e98c4ad363/A-systematic-review-of-the-quality-of-research-on-hands-on-and-distance-healing-Clinical-and-laboratory-studies.pdf https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Cindy_Crawford/publicat...

Udo 7y ago
That doesn't address my criticism of the premise. I chose to critique the assertions made of why prayer helps. You address the question of whether it helps. It's one of these "distance healing" prayer studies, and a meta-study at that. If you dig down into any of these data sources, you will find plenty of wishful thinking is involved in the design of the individual studies. But again, whether you believe that it works or not, I wanted to move the discussion to address the claims of why it supposedly works. What I mean by "bankrupt" is the idea that people believe there is an omniscient superintelligence who actively controls the universe on a micro level and takes a direct interest in your personal life choices, who at the same time can be made to change its mind whenever enough people get together to praise it in a transparent attempt to beg for someone's life. Even putting aside the obvious scientific problems with this concept, I call it also theologically bankrupt because - while it's not completely inconceivable that the universe works like that - it still flies in the face of what most religions portray their deities as.
- hajile 7y ago
  There seems to be a deep misunderstanding of religion here. "Prayer is the opening of the heart to God as to a friend. Not that it is necessary in order to make known to God what we are, but in order to enable us to receive Him. Prayer does not bring God down to us, but brings us up to Him" Just before giving His disciples the Lord's Prayer in the New Testament, Jesus says, "But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking. Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him." Then the prayer itself follows up saying, "After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread. And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen." There's a lot of philosophy tied up in all of that (even for non-Christians). Most people who win the lottery go bankrupt in short order. If you aren't ready for a good thing, it can be destructive. Prayer is an acceptance that God knows what is best for the universe. It helps the person praying to become "in tune" with God's plan and accept that plan no matter if it is personally costly. As you can see, "Begging for someone's life" is a very different mindset. The change in mindset from prayer's self-reflection can instill a positive outlook which improves medical outcomes. If the outcome is terminal, that same self-reflection can help a person reach acceptance and turn their remaining time into a more positive experience (and help with their loved ones after they have passed away). That is all true even if there were nobody listening because they believe it to be true.

kerkeslager 7y ago

> If we're going to assign miracle status to improbable events, it should probably not be those that fall within the 20-50% range. It's telling, for example, that God never heals amputees. This illogic is fairly harmless in the OP's situation--if his belief in a God makes him happy, good for him I guess. But a lot of my atheist friends have had serious accidents or illnesses where religious people have tried to use it as on opportunity to proselytize. "Hey, you survived X horrible event, don't you think that means someone was looking out for you?" Well, if someone is looking out for us, they're doing a crap job, or X horrible event wouldn't have happened in the first place. The last thing I want when I'm lying in a hospital bed in pain is to hear about your imaginary friend.