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This is large scale Matrix-like exploitation at its finest like only humans can do. Copying the genes of a single animal hundreds of thousands of times, killin

• rapnie 7y ago
  > feed them corn and soy which is totally not their natural diet Yesterday I saw a documentary (Zembla) about the veal industry in The Netherlands (largest in EU, which exists mostly for export, also to US and China). Terrible conditions for the calves, but what most surprised me is that the farmers only feed them with milk! This way their meat will have the light color associated with 'fresh, young' veal. From the 1,500 veal producers, only a single one is biological, giving the calves proper food. Result is their meat is red in color.
  • tapland 7y ago
    Live in another EU country and have never thought of veal as paler. I have to go check the super market.
    • divbyzer0 7y ago
      Red, Pink and white veal. The colour of the meat is proportional to the amount of milk in their diet. The most sought after and expensive is white veal which has been exclusively fed on mothers milk.
    • randomdata 7y ago
      Veal simply refers to meat that comes from a cattle beast that is younger than the older cattle that beef comes from. There is no specific way to feed veal, but if the veal was fed a milk diet, then that is when the colour is lighter than when it is fed a more traditional diet.
• codetrotter 7y ago
  > This is large scale Matrix-like exploitation at its finest I remember someone drawing that parallel before. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Meatrix https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Meatrix
• rimliu 7y ago
  Milk is a very good source of calcium and it has nothing to do with lactose.
  • londons_explore 7y ago
    Its also pretty similar to human milk, which has evolved to be a close-to-perfect source of nutrition.
    • vfc1 7y ago
      For babies, not for adults. Adult animals in most species can't even drink milk, they can't digest it anymore past infancy. Biologically this means that the infant would release the mother so that they could have another child, so there is biological adaption on most species to not drink milk past a certain age. And we have it too via lactose intolerance, which is normal. However, some relatively small percentage of humans developed the ability to drink milk around 10k years ago in Turkey, but it's not perfect. It gets worse with age as one would expect. Human babies shouldn't drink cow's milk, it's completely unnecessary and there are questions about it's effect on long-term human health.
      • anonymousDan 7y ago
        Sorry you're completely scaremongering here. Can you point to any actual evidence to back up your claims?
        • cariaso 7y ago
          Most of the statements there are reasonably well founded. The specifics of 'Turkey' may be a bit off, but broadly I'd agree with the comment you're replying to. https://www.snpedia.com/index.php/Lactose_intolerance https://www.snpedia.com/index.php/Lactose_intolerance and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lactase_persistence https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lactase_persistence
          • 7y ago
• leadingthenet 7y ago
  You're going to have to pry my homemade kefir from my cold, dead hands!
  • miffy900 7y ago
    Well Kefir is a good example of a fermented milk drink that more people should consume, instead of regular milk, really. It's got a nice bonus that any one can ingest it, including lactose-intolerant people.
    • elmar 7y ago
      Well, kefir should really be made with unpasteurised milk the commercial ones are pasteurised.
      • deleted 7y ago
        [deleted]
      • tudorw 7y ago
        that's unpasteurized Yak and Cattle milk to get technical :)
    • leadingthenet 7y ago
      Only the original recipe, which is made from unpasteurised goat's milk. The store-bought ones have practically no relation to the real thing in either micronutrient distribution, lactose quantity, or taste.
  • vfc1 7y ago
    Hehehe You can do it with plant-based milk too, don't worry.
    • TheCuckedKing 7y ago
      Naw
  • newscracker 7y ago
• deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
• SmellyGeekBoy 7y ago
  > Copying the genes of a single animal hundreds of thousands of times, killing the males at birth, plugging the females to a milking machine, feed them corn and soy which is totally not their natural diet and injecting them with tons of antibiotics, hormones and god knows what else. I'd just like to point out as you seem to be (wilfully?) unaware - there are far more ethical and natural ways of producing cows' milk commonly practised all over the world as they have been for centuries. I'm also horrified by the abomination that is the modern US intensive factory model but it's disingenious to claim that this is the only way. Consumers can easily avoid it without cutting out dairy altogether as long as they're informed.
  • vfc1 7y ago
    One thing implies the other, as it's impossible to produce enough dairy for so many people using the methods you mention, that is why most dairy people consume comes from factory farms in the first place. Dairy price would sky-rocket and become a luxury item, and few people would be able to afford it several times a day every day, as its so common today.
    • throwawayfjlo 7y ago
      European countries don't do any of the things described in GP yet most of us drink cheap milk everyday so something must be off in your analysis
      • vfc1 7y ago
        There is this common internet illusion that these things only happen in the US. It's a myth, of course, it absolutely happens in Europe too and everywhere in the western world. How could it not, its economics and its a business. The goal is to produce the maximum amount of dairy at the lowest possible price, to fulfill an ever-increasing demand. Maybe the agricultural factories are usually not of the same size as in the US, but the techniques and the consequences are the same.
        • 7y ago
• lexapro 7y ago
  I can image cutting out meat from my diet, only thing I would really miss is the taste of chicken and maybe fish. Dairy on the other hand would be much much harder. Because I wouldn't just miss the taste but would have to change my entire diet.
  • vfc1 7y ago
    Dairy actually has hormones called caso-morphines that bind to the same brain receptors as I believe heroine (of course not as potent). So it's addictive in nature, this addition is probably meant to keep the calf close to the mother and away from harm. But the addiction can be easily broken and after a while you start finding cheese actually a bit gross because its essentially solid melting fat. As far as I know for people looking to eat in a less environmentally impactful way, eating only pork, chicken and eggs and removing the dairy and beef is great already.
    • Mirioron 7y ago
      >But the addiction can be easily broken and after a while you start finding cheese actually a bit gross because its essentially solid melting fat. Out of the calories you get from (most) cheese half of it is fat and the other half protein. It's absolutely not just fat.
      • vfc1 7y ago
        Yes, you're right its fat and protein, I meant to say that it looks like melting fat.
        • amanaplanacanal 7y ago
          Delicious melting fat
    • herml6987 7y ago
      >Dairy actually has hormones called caso-morphines that bind to the same brain receptors as I believe heroine (of course not as potent). So it's addictive in nature So is the following plant-based foods Gluten exorphin (from gluten found in cereals wheat, rye, barley) Gliadorphin/gluteomorphin (from gluten found in cereals wheat, rye, barley) Soymorphin-5 (from soybean) Rubiscolin (from spinach) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opioid_peptide#Opioid_food_peptides https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opioid_peptide#Opioid_food_pep...
• navigatesol 7y ago
  >feed them corn and soy which is totally not their natural diet What's a "natural diet"? I always assumed that animals (including us) ate what they could get, and their diets were perpetually evolving along with their environment.
  • bluGill 7y ago
    Grass would make up the bulk of their diet. Note that corn is a grass. Dairy cows have a diet that is strictly designed by a nutritionist. When cows are fed corn, it isn't just the corn seed, it is the entire plant. Dairy cows get the more expensive premium feed, and soy is not a large part of that.
  • inerte 7y ago
    Their diets are probably evolving but we're the ones changing the environment. Instead of grazing pasture, we feed them with genetically modified (not a bad thing per se, but not naturally available on the environment) and so much washed out that we have to fortify with B12 otherwise they would get sick.
• ryanmercer 7y ago
  >This is large scale Matrix-like exploitation at its finest like only humans can do. Nah, that would be the Cavendish banana as they are effectively all clones.
• asdfman123 7y ago
  I've never seen myself as a vegetarian, but increasingly as I get older I can't deal with the cognitive dissonance of eating meat and my feelings about individual animals. I mean, my fiancee and I used to rescue shelter dogs, and I can't square that behavior of putting through chickens and cows through hell in factory farms. I still eat meat, but I feel like I'm getting closer to not doing that every day.
  • hitpointdrew 7y ago
    I'm a similar, but opposite boat. Instead of feeling like I am closer to going vegetarian, I feel myself closer to becoming a hunter. I don't like my meat coming from poor factory farm practices, and think it would be great if I could source most of my meat though hunting, and then supplement it with meat and eggs from local farms. BTW factory farming isn't just isolated to animals, there are lots of issues with large-scale factory farming crops too.
    • vfc1 7y ago
      Actually, most crops (80% of the world crops) are for feeding animals. Shooting the animals yourself is not a very practical solution, or scalable. Sure you could do it for yourself and your family at great expense of your time and even some personal risk, but what about the rest of your city and country? That would surely not scale, there is just not enough wild game to hunt, it can only be done at certain times of the year., etc.
      • evandev 7y ago
        I consider it to be practical, enjoyable, and yes non-scalable. But I would also consider the world going vegetarian as not realistic, and just like some people go vegetarian to reduce their carbon footprint, I'm going to hunt to reduce mine.
      • hitpointdrew 7y ago
        >Shooting the animals yourself is not a very practical solution, or scalable. It is 100% practical for me personally. I have the time and money for it. I can agree that isn't scalable, not everyone can hunt their own meat. >but what about the rest of your city and country? > It isn't for everyone. That would surely not scale... I am not looking to solve a national problem, just trying to do what is best for me and my family.
• netcan 7y ago
  Necessary/unnecessary, when it comes to food matkets, is a problematic way of thinking. It's ultimately preference, not necessity driven and our food culture is very complex. Completely necessity driven (calories, nutrients and such)... the food market could be much tinier than it is today. We'd be getting our animal proteins from insects, our fresh vegetables from a small collection of locally efficient species, etc. Dairy is a long tradition in a lot of places, and an important (culturally, but also nutritionally in-context) food. So is beef. So are spices. Increasingly, things like almond milk and avocados, for newer cultural movements. Sure, dairy is not necessary. Neither are avocados. People like them though. In any case, long history and tradition of cattle. The "matrix" problem is mostly a problem of agricultural policy, corporat farming and technology. I live in Ireland. We have a big dairy industry. Cows eat mostly grass and live mostly in fields. Antibiotics are for sick cows. The medium sized farmers are still strong and I feel fine about the ethics of dairy, at least from an animal welfare perspective. There a newer reasons for change. It might be a good idea to plant forest, instead of grassy fields and to be concerned about atmospheric methane. That said, if we are to reforest, we might use the forest to farm pigs the old fashioned way. Pigs are factory farmed, and animal welfare is a problem.
  • vfc1 7y ago
    There is this illusion in european countries that factory farming is a thing of the US, when in fact for example in Ireland factory farming it exists too - https://beyondthepaleireland.com/2017/07/28/factory-farms-on-the-increase-in-ireland/ https://beyondthepaleireland.com/2017/07/28/factory-farms-on... And it couldn't be any other way, its economics. If one farmer starts feeding the animals with cheaper food and have better milk yielding cows, he would have a competitive advantage over other farmers, and start taking over a larger part of the market.
    • deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
    • netcan 7y ago
      As, I and you link say... pork (and poultry) is a different story. Dairy, beef & lamb are farmed differently here. There is nuance. This is a disingenuous way of making an argument. Existence of factory farming isn't in dispute. It exists. ...as does regular farming! How can you possibly argue that decent farming (eg dairy) doesn't exist. Decent farming exists. Widely. Profitably. I'm looking out my window at decently raised cows right now. If you think farming is wrong in principle, that's fine. We can debate this. Arguing that farming is inevitably dominated by bad factory farming practices is nonsense.
• irrational 7y ago
  But what will I put on my Lucky Charms if we don't have milk? Seriously, the worst thing for me about doing away with milk/cream/etc. would be having to get all new recipes. Especially for baking. Milk is in so very many recipes and you can't just switch it out for soy milk or almond milk.
  • AnIdiotOnTheNet 7y ago
    Actually I'll bet you can, or just omit it or even replace it with water or some other water-based liquid. Very few baked good use milk in any meaningful way, which pretty much just leaves cheese and sauces. Of those, cheese is the hard one. I've heard there are vegan cheeses on the market now that don't suck but even assuming that is true they're probably still quite expensive. P.S. Oh right, there's butter, but shortening has been around for ages and butter-flavored shortening about as long.
    • irrational 7y ago
      Nah, I've tried since one of my kids is slightly lactose intolerant. Neither soy nor almond milk have proven to be suitable substitutes. It's not just the liquid, but something in the cow milk missing from the other milks.
      • AnIdiotOnTheNet 7y ago
        I'm curious what you're making. I've done quite a bit of baking in my time and I can't even think of a recipe that uses milk as anything other than a more flavorful water.
  • vfc1 7y ago
    it's possible to bake some very tasty cakes without milk, but it involves trying new recipes and techniques.
    • tracker1 7y ago
      Every time I've tried any kind of baked goods that didn't use actual butter or lard are just not as good in my opinion. Of course I've gone near zero carb as I just don't seem to respond well with most foods anymore (especially wheat and other grains) and I'm allergic to legumes. Sometimes the stuff made with almond or coconut flour is okay, but I find the closer I stick to mostly eggs and meat, the better I feel.
• izzydata 7y ago
  I discovered not that long ago that it is normal to become lactose intolerant in adulthood after a prolonged period of not consuming dairy.
  • vfc1 7y ago
    As far as I know, you don't need to stop consuming dairy it can happen gradually as you are consuming it too over the course of your life. It's not an all or nothing thing, there are several degrees to it. Some people will end up in the hospital, others with only sporadic digestive issues not that troubling at first, etc.
• narrator 7y ago
  From a purely darwinistic perspective, cows have been hugely successful thanks to their partnership with humans. I am unconvinced that there is some sort of underutilized potential for dairy cows to be something other than they are. Human neural networks are miscalibrated to trigger oxytocin around non-humans or even convincing fakes, for example many people are absolutely in love with stuffed animals too, but it's pretty evolutionarily maladapted.
• khawkins 7y ago
  >Copying the genes of a single animal hundreds of thousands of times, killing the males at birth, plugging the females to a milking machine, feed them corn and soy which is totally not their natural diet and injecting them with tons of antibiotics, hormones and god knows what else. >I wonder what could possibly go wrong? All completely unnecessary and with a tremendous environmental impact. This has been standard operating procedure for nearly a century and has fed billions of people. Over that same time life expectancy has gone up significantly and milk remains one of the cheapest and most plentiful foods on the planet. Your complains smell more like superstition than anything supported by scientific evidence.
• throwaway925 7y ago
  I almost shed a tear!