5 ms·

What majority? In Catalonia less than 50% of people want independence. It just so happens that the minority is louder.

kilburn 7y ago
> In Catalonia less than 50% of people want independence. Citation needed. The main historical request by pro-independence people has always been for a vote to be held on the matter. Spain has always replied that there will never be such vote.
- pvaldes 7y ago
  The results of the TRUE/LEGAL/non-SCAM elections are public for anybody to see it. Five millions of people can vote, 2 millions voted independentist parties. Three millions NOT. Is an easy calculus. The majority of people do not want to lose their EU and spanish status, and they never wanted it.
  - kilburn 7y ago
    "TRUE/LEGAL/non-SCAM" elections are not a referendum about independence, whether you like it or not. They are evidence, evidence that doesn't confirm the very strong claim that "less than 50% of people want independence". According to the latest such election (2019 spanish general elections), we had [1]: 1.626.001 votes for parties clearly supporting independence (ERC + JxCat + Front Republicà) 1.784.129 votes for parties clearly opposing independence (PSOE + Cs + PP) 678.451 votes for parties that claim other issues are more important (UP + PACMA) The total numbers for/against independence are not clear and could swing either way. We would need either much more skewed results (to extrapolate from them) or an actual vote on the issue to support the claim that was made here. Note that I haven't made the opposite claim (more than 50% of people want independence). I just said that in the current situation the way to know would be to hold a vote, and that Spain has always opposed this option. [1] https://www.abc.es/elecciones/elecciones-generales/resultados/cataluna/ https://www.abc.es/elecciones/elecciones-generales/resultado...
    - pvaldes 7y ago
      Therefore the data support perfectly the statement that "In Catalonia less than 50% of people want independence". Nobody stopped they to freely vote other options. But this is a trap, a fake discussion, because the independentist people in Catalonia don't own the place. The spanish constitution grants rights to all citizens in Spain to share the whole territory, use the public spaces and infrastructures in their benefit, enjoy nature and stablish, work and live peacefully in any point of the nation that they would desire and choose, without being bullied by the local sheriff or politician.
flukus 7y ago
Technically correct, but that doesn't tell the whole story as there still seems to be more people that want independence than don't want it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalan_independence_movement#Polling_institutions https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalan_independence_movement#... . The minority is not just louder but more numerous.
nomusuari 7y ago
Catalans did a referendum for independence. The Yes won by 90%. But the referendum was not legal according to the Spanish law. The spanish won't allow a legal referendum because they now there is a majority who want independence.
- Oletros 7y ago
  > Catalans did a referendum for independence. No, Catalans didn't did a referendum, Catalan Government did on illegal referendum
  - nomusuari 7y ago
    It was mostly payed by the catalan population and this is the reason why the Spanish "judges" have to lie so much to jail Catalan politicians for misuse of public funds. Anyway the point is we won by 90% and if we did another legal referendum we would win again and that is why the spaniards will never allow a legal referendum.
    - Oletros 7y ago
      If you want to believe that you won anything, well, there is also people that believe Earth is flat
      - nomusuari 7y ago
        If you bothered to look at the facts you would see that more people voted in Catalonia's referendum of independence that for a general election. In Catalonia, we are all willing to do another referendum, a legal one, but we all know that Spain will never allow it because the Yes would win again. Catalonia is forced to be under spanish rule and they will do anything to keep it this way: jailing catalan politicians, beating protesters, making up stories a la Goebbels, torturing people or killing activists.
- pvaldes 7y ago
  Again, this "referendum" was a scam designed to have an excuse to push their agenda further. Was totalitarism travestied as democracy carefully designed to steal 47 millions of spaniards from their constitutional rigths
pvaldes 7y ago
> It just so happens that the minority is louder. And more aggressive

> In Catalonia less than 50% of people want independence. Citation needed. The main historical request by pro-independence people has always been for a vote to be held on the matter. Spain has always replied that there will never be such vote.

pvaldes 7y ago
The results of the TRUE/LEGAL/non-SCAM elections are public for anybody to see it. Five millions of people can vote, 2 millions voted independentist parties. Three millions NOT. Is an easy calculus. The majority of people do not want to lose their EU and spanish status, and they never wanted it.
- kilburn 7y ago
  "TRUE/LEGAL/non-SCAM" elections are not a referendum about independence, whether you like it or not. They are evidence, evidence that doesn't confirm the very strong claim that "less than 50% of people want independence". According to the latest such election (2019 spanish general elections), we had [1]: 1.626.001 votes for parties clearly supporting independence (ERC + JxCat + Front Republicà) 1.784.129 votes for parties clearly opposing independence (PSOE + Cs + PP) 678.451 votes for parties that claim other issues are more important (UP + PACMA) The total numbers for/against independence are not clear and could swing either way. We would need either much more skewed results (to extrapolate from them) or an actual vote on the issue to support the claim that was made here. Note that I haven't made the opposite claim (more than 50% of people want independence). I just said that in the current situation the way to know would be to hold a vote, and that Spain has always opposed this option. [1] https://www.abc.es/elecciones/elecciones-generales/resultados/cataluna/ https://www.abc.es/elecciones/elecciones-generales/resultado...
  - pvaldes 7y ago
    Therefore the data support perfectly the statement that "In Catalonia less than 50% of people want independence". Nobody stopped they to freely vote other options. But this is a trap, a fake discussion, because the independentist people in Catalonia don't own the place. The spanish constitution grants rights to all citizens in Spain to share the whole territory, use the public spaces and infrastructures in their benefit, enjoy nature and stablish, work and live peacefully in any point of the nation that they would desire and choose, without being bullied by the local sheriff or politician.

flukus 7y ago

Technically correct, but that doesn't tell the whole story as there still seems to be more people that want independence than don't want it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalan_independence_movement#Polling_institutions https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalan_independence_movement#... . The minority is not just louder but more numerous.

nomusuari 7y ago

Catalans did a referendum for independence. The Yes won by 90%. But the referendum was not legal according to the Spanish law. The spanish won't allow a legal referendum because they now there is a majority who want independence.

Oletros 7y ago
> Catalans did a referendum for independence. No, Catalans didn't did a referendum, Catalan Government did on illegal referendum
- nomusuari 7y ago
  It was mostly payed by the catalan population and this is the reason why the Spanish "judges" have to lie so much to jail Catalan politicians for misuse of public funds. Anyway the point is we won by 90% and if we did another legal referendum we would win again and that is why the spaniards will never allow a legal referendum.
  - Oletros 7y ago
    If you want to believe that you won anything, well, there is also people that believe Earth is flat
    - nomusuari 7y ago
      If you bothered to look at the facts you would see that more people voted in Catalonia's referendum of independence that for a general election. In Catalonia, we are all willing to do another referendum, a legal one, but we all know that Spain will never allow it because the Yes would win again. Catalonia is forced to be under spanish rule and they will do anything to keep it this way: jailing catalan politicians, beating protesters, making up stories a la Goebbels, torturing people or killing activists.
pvaldes 7y ago
Again, this "referendum" was a scam designed to have an excuse to push their agenda further. Was totalitarism travestied as democracy carefully designed to steal 47 millions of spaniards from their constitutional rigths

pvaldes 7y ago

> It just so happens that the minority is louder. And more aggressive