6 ms·

Does it matter? If a locally grouped majority wants to seperate from a bigger structure they should be allowed to, everything else is evil.

oliverx0 7y ago
What majority? In Catalonia less than 50% of people want independence. It just so happens that the minority is louder.
- kilburn 7y ago
  > In Catalonia less than 50% of people want independence. Citation needed. The main historical request by pro-independence people has always been for a vote to be held on the matter. Spain has always replied that there will never be such vote.
  - pvaldes 7y ago
    The results of the TRUE/LEGAL/non-SCAM elections are public for anybody to see it. Five millions of people can vote, 2 millions voted independentist parties. Three millions NOT. Is an easy calculus. The majority of people do not want to lose their EU and spanish status, and they never wanted it.
    - kilburn 7y ago
      "TRUE/LEGAL/non-SCAM" elections are not a referendum about independence, whether you like it or not. They are evidence, evidence that doesn't confirm the very strong claim that "less than 50% of people want independence". According to the latest such election (2019 spanish general elections), we had [1]: 1.626.001 votes for parties clearly supporting independence (ERC + JxCat + Front Republicà) 1.784.129 votes for parties clearly opposing independence (PSOE + Cs + PP) 678.451 votes for parties that claim other issues are more important (UP + PACMA) The total numbers for/against independence are not clear and could swing either way. We would need either much more skewed results (to extrapolate from them) or an actual vote on the issue to support the claim that was made here. Note that I haven't made the opposite claim (more than 50% of people want independence). I just said that in the current situation the way to know would be to hold a vote, and that Spain has always opposed this option. [1] https://www.abc.es/elecciones/elecciones-generales/resultados/cataluna/ https://www.abc.es/elecciones/elecciones-generales/resultado...
      - pvaldes 7y ago
        Therefore the data support perfectly the statement that "In Catalonia less than 50% of people want independence". Nobody stopped they to freely vote other options. But this is a trap, a fake discussion, because the independentist people in Catalonia don't own the place. The spanish constitution grants rights to all citizens in Spain to share the whole territory, use the public spaces and infrastructures in their benefit, enjoy nature and stablish, work and live peacefully in any point of the nation that they would desire and choose, without being bullied by the local sheriff or politician.
- flukus 7y ago
  Technically correct, but that doesn't tell the whole story as there still seems to be more people that want independence than don't want it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalan_independence_movement#Polling_institutions https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalan_independence_movement#... . The minority is not just louder but more numerous.
- nomusuari 7y ago
  Catalans did a referendum for independence. The Yes won by 90%. But the referendum was not legal according to the Spanish law. The spanish won't allow a legal referendum because they now there is a majority who want independence.
  - Oletros 7y ago
    > Catalans did a referendum for independence. No, Catalans didn't did a referendum, Catalan Government did on illegal referendum
    - nomusuari 7y ago
      It was mostly payed by the catalan population and this is the reason why the Spanish "judges" have to lie so much to jail Catalan politicians for misuse of public funds. Anyway the point is we won by 90% and if we did another legal referendum we would win again and that is why the spaniards will never allow a legal referendum.
      - Oletros 7y ago
        If you want to believe that you won anything, well, there is also people that believe Earth is flat
        nomusuari 7y ago
        If you bothered to look at the facts you would see that more people voted in Catalonia's referendum of independence that for a general election. In Catalonia, we are all willing to do another referendum, a legal one, but we all know that Spain will never allow it because the Yes would win again. Catalonia is forced to be under spanish rule and they will do anything to keep it this way: jailing catalan politicians, beating protesters, making up stories a la Goebbels, torturing people or killing activists.
  - pvaldes 7y ago
    Again, this "referendum" was a scam designed to have an excuse to push their agenda further. Was totalitarism travestied as democracy carefully designed to steal 47 millions of spaniards from their constitutional rigths
- pvaldes 7y ago
  > It just so happens that the minority is louder. And more aggressive
hellllllllooo 7y ago
I can think of non-evil reasons to stop secession. If the US South wanted to secede to continue slavery is it evil to prevent that to protect people?
- pvaldes 7y ago
  I will give you 5 millions of reasons. The lives and patrimony of oppressed non-separatist people living in Cuckoloonia that are exhausted of being harassed day and night by a minority of criminals in power and their army of brainwashed puppets. Last night the separatists burned cars and bikes, really happy to have started finally their exciting new war in the real world. They crave for blood and having marthyrs to show to the word since years ago. They even have a name for it: WARcelona. Daddy's little psycho and mommy's little soldier. Some days ago President Torra asked for rebellion against the same government that he swore loyalty. If is not surrealist enough, later he send the autonomic police against the same children. An adolescent lose an eye. A french tourist suffered a heart attack and died after being forced to walk 4 Km to reach the airport. A father must toke their baby and run away from his home in the middle of the nigth because the idiots were burning tires at the street and the smoke goes to the first floor of the next house. They were about to axfixiate the family living above without ever noticing it, or caring for anything. Do you know what was the answer that they gave to this father?: "take it easy, man"
  - nomusuari 7y ago
    The Catalan independence movement is peaceful. Most violence is done by payed spaniards pretending to be catalan separatists. We already know all the spanish dirty tricks.
    - pvaldes 7y ago
      Are you sure? This does not seem peaceful to me: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VYuwTqahNr4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VYuwTqahNr4
    - oliverx0 7y ago
      Peaceful? Are you serious? Burned cars, streets on fire, ongoing brawls for the past 4 days. The separatist movement is anything but peaceful, and it is costing everyone in Spain. https://www.elmundo.es/cataluna/2019/10/18/5da97e2821efa079038b45b9.html https://www.elmundo.es/cataluna/2019/10/18/5da97e2821efa0790...
ViViDboarder 7y ago
To be clear, my comment below is about separatism in first world nations. If a region is attempting to separate from an oppressive regime, I 100% agree they should. Generally I tend to support the idea of folks being in control of their own destiny, but I can see why a larger government would not want to allow it. The smaller local government only needs to worry about what is best for itself, while the larger government must think about the nation as a whole. Looking at California, or New York. If the two decided to separate from the United States, what would be the economic impact to the remaining states in the nation? I’m no economist, but it doesn’t seem good. I imagine this is also true for regions or areas that have strong natural advantages as well. Such as ports which offer military and trade benefits. I can see both sides. I can feel for folks that want to separate, but also can see why they would not be allowed.
- enriquto 7y ago
  > To be clear, my comment below is about separatism in first world nations. If a region is attempting to separate from an oppressive regime,... In that case, we are talking about a first world state that is also an oppressive regime (jails political opponents, has paramilitary grops, engages in state terrorism against its own people, etc.) What happens, then? Do you demote spain as third world (I would totally agreee with that) so you that you can still support the people who want to escape?
  - Oletros 7y ago
    > In that case, we are talking about a first world state that is also an oppressive regime Are you talking about Spain? Because if you're, youre' compeltely wrong
    - enriquto 7y ago
      Yes, I am. I have lived more than 30 years under the illegitimate spanish occupation and I know what I'm talking about. Now, being an expat, I still follow the events closely, because a large part of my family is still there.
freddie_mercury 7y ago
I don't think it is always so clearcut. In many cases the separatist movement only gains traction when a particular region becomes richer than other parts of the country and complains about "supporting" the others. It becomes a clear case of expecting others to support you when you are down but then keeping profits for yourself when things turn around.
wslh 7y ago
What is the minimum unit of land where you accept that a grouped majority should be allowed to separate? If Girona wants to separate and Barcelona doesn't do you accept the deal?
- abdullahkhalids 7y ago
  I think you are implying that if we let really small regions secede, then every town and village could ask for secession if they disagree with provincial or federal policies. And a world with every town/village/city it's own country will be much worse than the current one. I think it's a good question. We can ask ourselves, what the competing principles here are, as the "right to political self-determination" is not the only principle. One competing principle is stems from the fact that secession requires reorganization of the economic relations between the larger country and the seceding region. As such, there is an economic cost to the country, that must be balanced with the benefit to the world from the region seceding. If the economic cost is high compared to benefit (as is likely for towns), then the country can reasonably deny the secession request. Of course, if the country is highly oppressive to the region, then the marginal good to the world of a region seceding can be effectively infinite, and then we should always support the secession request.
  - keiferski 7y ago
    > And a world with every town/village/city it's own country will be much worse than the current one. Citation needed.
    - abdullahkhalids 7y ago
      That is not my position. That is what I assumed the parent's position was.
      - keiferski 7y ago
        Sorry, I misread your comment then.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
Oletros 7y ago
The problem with Catalonia is that there is no majority for independence
- pvaldes 7y ago
  The problem with Catalonia is that young people has been brainwashed in school for 40 years. Independence is neither a goal nor desired for the majority of the people living there
  - nomusuari 7y ago
    You managed to contradict yourself in only two sentences, bravo!
- heavyset_go 7y ago
  Support for independence from Britain was very low in the American colonies before the American Revolution.
pvaldes 7y ago
Nobody is trying to stop they to migrate to any other country of the planet that they prefer. People does this all the time.

oliverx0 7y ago

What majority? In Catalonia less than 50% of people want independence. It just so happens that the minority is louder.

kilburn 7y ago
> In Catalonia less than 50% of people want independence. Citation needed. The main historical request by pro-independence people has always been for a vote to be held on the matter. Spain has always replied that there will never be such vote.
- pvaldes 7y ago
  The results of the TRUE/LEGAL/non-SCAM elections are public for anybody to see it. Five millions of people can vote, 2 millions voted independentist parties. Three millions NOT. Is an easy calculus. The majority of people do not want to lose their EU and spanish status, and they never wanted it.
  - kilburn 7y ago
    "TRUE/LEGAL/non-SCAM" elections are not a referendum about independence, whether you like it or not. They are evidence, evidence that doesn't confirm the very strong claim that "less than 50% of people want independence". According to the latest such election (2019 spanish general elections), we had [1]: 1.626.001 votes for parties clearly supporting independence (ERC + JxCat + Front Republicà) 1.784.129 votes for parties clearly opposing independence (PSOE + Cs + PP) 678.451 votes for parties that claim other issues are more important (UP + PACMA) The total numbers for/against independence are not clear and could swing either way. We would need either much more skewed results (to extrapolate from them) or an actual vote on the issue to support the claim that was made here. Note that I haven't made the opposite claim (more than 50% of people want independence). I just said that in the current situation the way to know would be to hold a vote, and that Spain has always opposed this option. [1] https://www.abc.es/elecciones/elecciones-generales/resultados/cataluna/ https://www.abc.es/elecciones/elecciones-generales/resultado...
    - pvaldes 7y ago
      Therefore the data support perfectly the statement that "In Catalonia less than 50% of people want independence". Nobody stopped they to freely vote other options. But this is a trap, a fake discussion, because the independentist people in Catalonia don't own the place. The spanish constitution grants rights to all citizens in Spain to share the whole territory, use the public spaces and infrastructures in their benefit, enjoy nature and stablish, work and live peacefully in any point of the nation that they would desire and choose, without being bullied by the local sheriff or politician.
flukus 7y ago
Technically correct, but that doesn't tell the whole story as there still seems to be more people that want independence than don't want it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalan_independence_movement#Polling_institutions https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalan_independence_movement#... . The minority is not just louder but more numerous.
nomusuari 7y ago
Catalans did a referendum for independence. The Yes won by 90%. But the referendum was not legal according to the Spanish law. The spanish won't allow a legal referendum because they now there is a majority who want independence.
- Oletros 7y ago
  > Catalans did a referendum for independence. No, Catalans didn't did a referendum, Catalan Government did on illegal referendum
  - nomusuari 7y ago
    It was mostly payed by the catalan population and this is the reason why the Spanish "judges" have to lie so much to jail Catalan politicians for misuse of public funds. Anyway the point is we won by 90% and if we did another legal referendum we would win again and that is why the spaniards will never allow a legal referendum.
    - Oletros 7y ago
      If you want to believe that you won anything, well, there is also people that believe Earth is flat
      - nomusuari 7y ago
        If you bothered to look at the facts you would see that more people voted in Catalonia's referendum of independence that for a general election. In Catalonia, we are all willing to do another referendum, a legal one, but we all know that Spain will never allow it because the Yes would win again. Catalonia is forced to be under spanish rule and they will do anything to keep it this way: jailing catalan politicians, beating protesters, making up stories a la Goebbels, torturing people or killing activists.
- pvaldes 7y ago
  Again, this "referendum" was a scam designed to have an excuse to push their agenda further. Was totalitarism travestied as democracy carefully designed to steal 47 millions of spaniards from their constitutional rigths
pvaldes 7y ago
> It just so happens that the minority is louder. And more aggressive

hellllllllooo 7y ago

I can think of non-evil reasons to stop secession. If the US South wanted to secede to continue slavery is it evil to prevent that to protect people?

pvaldes 7y ago
I will give you 5 millions of reasons. The lives and patrimony of oppressed non-separatist people living in Cuckoloonia that are exhausted of being harassed day and night by a minority of criminals in power and their army of brainwashed puppets. Last night the separatists burned cars and bikes, really happy to have started finally their exciting new war in the real world. They crave for blood and having marthyrs to show to the word since years ago. They even have a name for it: WARcelona. Daddy's little psycho and mommy's little soldier. Some days ago President Torra asked for rebellion against the same government that he swore loyalty. If is not surrealist enough, later he send the autonomic police against the same children. An adolescent lose an eye. A french tourist suffered a heart attack and died after being forced to walk 4 Km to reach the airport. A father must toke their baby and run away from his home in the middle of the nigth because the idiots were burning tires at the street and the smoke goes to the first floor of the next house. They were about to axfixiate the family living above without ever noticing it, or caring for anything. Do you know what was the answer that they gave to this father?: "take it easy, man"
- nomusuari 7y ago
  The Catalan independence movement is peaceful. Most violence is done by payed spaniards pretending to be catalan separatists. We already know all the spanish dirty tricks.
  - pvaldes 7y ago
    Are you sure? This does not seem peaceful to me: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VYuwTqahNr4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VYuwTqahNr4
  - oliverx0 7y ago
    Peaceful? Are you serious? Burned cars, streets on fire, ongoing brawls for the past 4 days. The separatist movement is anything but peaceful, and it is costing everyone in Spain. https://www.elmundo.es/cataluna/2019/10/18/5da97e2821efa079038b45b9.html https://www.elmundo.es/cataluna/2019/10/18/5da97e2821efa0790...

ViViDboarder 7y ago

To be clear, my comment below is about separatism in first world nations. If a region is attempting to separate from an oppressive regime, I 100% agree they should. Generally I tend to support the idea of folks being in control of their own destiny, but I can see why a larger government would not want to allow it. The smaller local government only needs to worry about what is best for itself, while the larger government must think about the nation as a whole. Looking at California, or New York. If the two decided to separate from the United States, what would be the economic impact to the remaining states in the nation? I’m no economist, but it doesn’t seem good. I imagine this is also true for regions or areas that have strong natural advantages as well. Such as ports which offer military and trade benefits. I can see both sides. I can feel for folks that want to separate, but also can see why they would not be allowed.

enriquto 7y ago
> To be clear, my comment below is about separatism in first world nations. If a region is attempting to separate from an oppressive regime,... In that case, we are talking about a first world state that is also an oppressive regime (jails political opponents, has paramilitary grops, engages in state terrorism against its own people, etc.) What happens, then? Do you demote spain as third world (I would totally agreee with that) so you that you can still support the people who want to escape?
- Oletros 7y ago
  > In that case, we are talking about a first world state that is also an oppressive regime Are you talking about Spain? Because if you're, youre' compeltely wrong
  - enriquto 7y ago
    Yes, I am. I have lived more than 30 years under the illegitimate spanish occupation and I know what I'm talking about. Now, being an expat, I still follow the events closely, because a large part of my family is still there.

freddie_mercury 7y ago

I don't think it is always so clearcut. In many cases the separatist movement only gains traction when a particular region becomes richer than other parts of the country and complains about "supporting" the others. It becomes a clear case of expecting others to support you when you are down but then keeping profits for yourself when things turn around.

wslh 7y ago

What is the minimum unit of land where you accept that a grouped majority should be allowed to separate? If Girona wants to separate and Barcelona doesn't do you accept the deal?

abdullahkhalids 7y ago
I think you are implying that if we let really small regions secede, then every town and village could ask for secession if they disagree with provincial or federal policies. And a world with every town/village/city it's own country will be much worse than the current one. I think it's a good question. We can ask ourselves, what the competing principles here are, as the "right to political self-determination" is not the only principle. One competing principle is stems from the fact that secession requires reorganization of the economic relations between the larger country and the seceding region. As such, there is an economic cost to the country, that must be balanced with the benefit to the world from the region seceding. If the economic cost is high compared to benefit (as is likely for towns), then the country can reasonably deny the secession request. Of course, if the country is highly oppressive to the region, then the marginal good to the world of a region seceding can be effectively infinite, and then we should always support the secession request.
- keiferski 7y ago
  > And a world with every town/village/city it's own country will be much worse than the current one. Citation needed.
  - abdullahkhalids 7y ago
    That is not my position. That is what I assumed the parent's position was.
    - keiferski 7y ago
      Sorry, I misread your comment then.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

Oletros 7y ago

The problem with Catalonia is that there is no majority for independence

pvaldes 7y ago
The problem with Catalonia is that young people has been brainwashed in school for 40 years. Independence is neither a goal nor desired for the majority of the people living there
- nomusuari 7y ago
  You managed to contradict yourself in only two sentences, bravo!
heavyset_go 7y ago
Support for independence from Britain was very low in the American colonies before the American Revolution.

pvaldes 7y ago

Nobody is trying to stop they to migrate to any other country of the planet that they prefer. People does this all the time.