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As it turns out, not many people commit crimes because they are fun. Deterrents like hash punishments work, but only to the extent that the person has an optio

As it turns out, not many people commit crimes because they are fun. Deterrents like hash punishments work, but only to the extent that the person has an option. Many people who turn to crime have no or few professional skills, and would struggle to make a living completely legitimately. Hence, they do what anyone would do in that situation, and commit crime to survive. And when individuals are locked away in prisons for years at a time with no rehabilitation, nothing's really changed. They are still in the same situation as before, except now they have a criminal record, making their situation even more dire. This leads to a revolving door effect where many individuals end up back in the same prison they just left. Not only does this ruin the person's life, it also costs the public in both lost productivity, and costs associated with housing imprisoned individuals. Many modern countries short circuit this cycle by educating and rehabilitating imprisoned individuals so by the time they leave their cells they are ready to join the economy as an effective worker. Think of it this way, if your child was struggling to get passing grades in school, what would be more effective? Locking them in their room with a book, or hiring a tutor?

core-questions 7y ago
> Hence, they do what anyone would do in that situation, and commit crime to survive. I will believe this when a person is stealing food, or even selling drugs. I will not believe this when a person is involved in violent acts, rape, murder, etc. which nobody "needs" to do to survive. > Not only does this ruin the person's life Arguably already ruined before they went to jail, in terms of their trajectory. Very, very few of these people are on the cusp of turning their lives around; it seems much more likely that they're just on the verge of getting caught, time and time again, until it finally happens. > it also costs the public in both lost productivity I don't believe this. It's rare that someone in this situation would have been productive at all, their entire lives, if the standard of "productive" is "pays more into the tax system than they take out". Even if they never went to jail, there's no reason to assume they'd be helping society somehow with their presence. And what of the many other unemployed non-criminals who could be being productive in whatever role you're imagining for our criminal sort? If we're worried about lost productivity, surely they come first. > Many modern countries short circuit this cycle by educating and rehabilitating imprisoned individuals so by the time they leave their cells they are ready to join the economy as an effective worker. This is such an academic view of the issue. Ex-cons seldom get any kind of good job - they're relegated to taking jobs that are stuck hiring them because they literally cannot find anyone else at their price point. > Think of it this way, if your child was struggling to get passing grades in school, what would be more effective? Locking them in their room with a book, or hiring a tutor? What an utterly vapid comparison. Struggling to get good grades is not even remotely the same thing as committing crimes; and it's not like most of these criminal sorts haven't had 18 years of second chances and resources being thrown at them. You can't reach some folks. You can stop them from reaching you.
- andrewxdiamond 7y ago
  > I will not believe this when a person is involved in violent acts, rape, murder, etc. which nobody "needs" to do to survive. Agreed. There is a spectrum of individuals, and not everyone is good. However, if you break down the types of crime, non-violent crimes are very much the majority (0). Most people don't like hurting other people. If you want an example of a working system with the mentality of "Rehabilitate over Punish", see many of the Nordic countries (1). > in the past decade, the number of Swedish prisoners has dropped from 5,722 to 4,500 out of a population of 9.5 million. The country has closed a number of prisons, and the recidivism rate is around 40%, which is far less than in the U.S. and most European countries. You can argue this is due to other factors such as overall wealth of the nation, but that further proves my point that crime is more often an act of desperation rather than one of sadism. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_the_United_States [1] https://www.mic.com/articles/109138/sweden-has-done-for-its-prisoners-what-the-u-s-won-t https://www.mic.com/articles/109138/sweden-has-done-for-its-...
  - andrewxdiamond 7y ago
    Additionally, > and it's not like most of these criminal sorts haven't had 18 years of second chances and resources being thrown at them A lot of these kids _haven't_. You're assuming everyone grew up in a middle class neighborhood with good teachers and was never pressured by gangs and never mistreated by authority. That's simply not the case. If you examine the personal history of many imprisoned people, you'll find a common pattern of poverty, limited chances, and family issues. All of which aren't the fault of the individual.
    - core-questions 7y ago
      > You're assuming everyone grew up in a middle class neighborhood with good teachers and was never pressured by gangs and never mistreated by authority. I'm not assuming that at all, I just don't buy it as an excuse for anything. Should we let such problems fester forever? Aww, gee, this kid grew up around gangs, guess we better give him a free pass for a few crimes that we wouldn't give to a privileged kid? If anything we need to be harsher on gangland so as to eventually stomp it out. Unless you think that we should just accept organized crime as a fact of life and stop trying? Damn, those Brazilian favelas are looking better all the time, eh? > If you examine the personal history of many imprisoned people, you'll find a common pattern of poverty, limited chances, and family issues. Probably also find a common pattern of low IQ.

core-questions 7y ago

> Hence, they do what anyone would do in that situation, and commit crime to survive. I will believe this when a person is stealing food, or even selling drugs. I will not believe this when a person is involved in violent acts, rape, murder, etc. which nobody "needs" to do to survive. > Not only does this ruin the person's life Arguably already ruined before they went to jail, in terms of their trajectory. Very, very few of these people are on the cusp of turning their lives around; it seems much more likely that they're just on the verge of getting caught, time and time again, until it finally happens. > it also costs the public in both lost productivity I don't believe this. It's rare that someone in this situation would have been productive at all, their entire lives, if the standard of "productive" is "pays more into the tax system than they take out". Even if they never went to jail, there's no reason to assume they'd be helping society somehow with their presence. And what of the many other unemployed non-criminals who could be being productive in whatever role you're imagining for our criminal sort? If we're worried about lost productivity, surely they come first. > Many modern countries short circuit this cycle by educating and rehabilitating imprisoned individuals so by the time they leave their cells they are ready to join the economy as an effective worker. This is such an academic view of the issue. Ex-cons seldom get any kind of good job - they're relegated to taking jobs that are stuck hiring them because they literally cannot find anyone else at their price point. > Think of it this way, if your child was struggling to get passing grades in school, what would be more effective? Locking them in their room with a book, or hiring a tutor? What an utterly vapid comparison. Struggling to get good grades is not even remotely the same thing as committing crimes; and it's not like most of these criminal sorts haven't had 18 years of second chances and resources being thrown at them. You can't reach some folks. You can stop them from reaching you.

andrewxdiamond 7y ago
> I will not believe this when a person is involved in violent acts, rape, murder, etc. which nobody "needs" to do to survive. Agreed. There is a spectrum of individuals, and not everyone is good. However, if you break down the types of crime, non-violent crimes are very much the majority (0). Most people don't like hurting other people. If you want an example of a working system with the mentality of "Rehabilitate over Punish", see many of the Nordic countries (1). > in the past decade, the number of Swedish prisoners has dropped from 5,722 to 4,500 out of a population of 9.5 million. The country has closed a number of prisons, and the recidivism rate is around 40%, which is far less than in the U.S. and most European countries. You can argue this is due to other factors such as overall wealth of the nation, but that further proves my point that crime is more often an act of desperation rather than one of sadism. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_the_United_States [1] https://www.mic.com/articles/109138/sweden-has-done-for-its-prisoners-what-the-u-s-won-t https://www.mic.com/articles/109138/sweden-has-done-for-its-...
- andrewxdiamond 7y ago
  Additionally, > and it's not like most of these criminal sorts haven't had 18 years of second chances and resources being thrown at them A lot of these kids _haven't_. You're assuming everyone grew up in a middle class neighborhood with good teachers and was never pressured by gangs and never mistreated by authority. That's simply not the case. If you examine the personal history of many imprisoned people, you'll find a common pattern of poverty, limited chances, and family issues. All of which aren't the fault of the individual.
  - core-questions 7y ago
    > You're assuming everyone grew up in a middle class neighborhood with good teachers and was never pressured by gangs and never mistreated by authority. I'm not assuming that at all, I just don't buy it as an excuse for anything. Should we let such problems fester forever? Aww, gee, this kid grew up around gangs, guess we better give him a free pass for a few crimes that we wouldn't give to a privileged kid? If anything we need to be harsher on gangland so as to eventually stomp it out. Unless you think that we should just accept organized crime as a fact of life and stop trying? Damn, those Brazilian favelas are looking better all the time, eh? > If you examine the personal history of many imprisoned people, you'll find a common pattern of poverty, limited chances, and family issues. Probably also find a common pattern of low IQ.