4 ms·

Rikers is a nasty place. I know guards that work there. Very soul crushing. Borough jails aren't going to be any easier to maintain if the federal ones are any

Rikers is a nasty place. I know guards that work there. Very soul crushing. Borough jails aren't going to be any easier to maintain if the federal ones are anything to go by.

core-questions 7y ago
Isn't that supposed to be part of the dissuading nature of punishment? Like, aren't we supposed to deter the more basal among us from committing crimes based on their fear of what will happen to them? Obviously not to the extent of cruel and unusual punishment, but having a rough go of things seems reasonable enough for a jail environment. It's not a damned country club.
- fossuser 7y ago
  I think Rikers goes beyond that. Preet Bharara talks about it in his book (specifically an example where a guard beats a prisoner awaiting trial to death along with examples of other problems). Some places may be so problematic they are beyond reform.
- tqi 7y ago
  Except the vast majority (85% according to this NYT article [1]) of Rikers inmates are pretrial detainees, ie people who have not been convicted of anything. Many are there because they can't afford bail, meaning they are in effect being punished for being poor. Also I disagree that the conditions in jail are part of the punishment. I think the punishment is supposed to be the loss of freedom, not the risk of harm at the hands of other inmates. [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2014/12/16/nyregion/what-is-happening-at-rikers-island.html https://www.nytimes.com/2014/12/16/nyregion/what-is-happenin...
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- andrewxdiamond 7y ago
  As it turns out, not many people commit crimes because they are fun. Deterrents like hash punishments work, but only to the extent that the person has an option. Many people who turn to crime have no or few professional skills, and would struggle to make a living completely legitimately. Hence, they do what anyone would do in that situation, and commit crime to survive. And when individuals are locked away in prisons for years at a time with no rehabilitation, nothing's really changed. They are still in the same situation as before, except now they have a criminal record, making their situation even more dire. This leads to a revolving door effect where many individuals end up back in the same prison they just left. Not only does this ruin the person's life, it also costs the public in both lost productivity, and costs associated with housing imprisoned individuals. Many modern countries short circuit this cycle by educating and rehabilitating imprisoned individuals so by the time they leave their cells they are ready to join the economy as an effective worker. Think of it this way, if your child was struggling to get passing grades in school, what would be more effective? Locking them in their room with a book, or hiring a tutor?
  - core-questions 7y ago
    > Hence, they do what anyone would do in that situation, and commit crime to survive. I will believe this when a person is stealing food, or even selling drugs. I will not believe this when a person is involved in violent acts, rape, murder, etc. which nobody "needs" to do to survive. > Not only does this ruin the person's life Arguably already ruined before they went to jail, in terms of their trajectory. Very, very few of these people are on the cusp of turning their lives around; it seems much more likely that they're just on the verge of getting caught, time and time again, until it finally happens. > it also costs the public in both lost productivity I don't believe this. It's rare that someone in this situation would have been productive at all, their entire lives, if the standard of "productive" is "pays more into the tax system than they take out". Even if they never went to jail, there's no reason to assume they'd be helping society somehow with their presence. And what of the many other unemployed non-criminals who could be being productive in whatever role you're imagining for our criminal sort? If we're worried about lost productivity, surely they come first. > Many modern countries short circuit this cycle by educating and rehabilitating imprisoned individuals so by the time they leave their cells they are ready to join the economy as an effective worker. This is such an academic view of the issue. Ex-cons seldom get any kind of good job - they're relegated to taking jobs that are stuck hiring them because they literally cannot find anyone else at their price point. > Think of it this way, if your child was struggling to get passing grades in school, what would be more effective? Locking them in their room with a book, or hiring a tutor? What an utterly vapid comparison. Struggling to get good grades is not even remotely the same thing as committing crimes; and it's not like most of these criminal sorts haven't had 18 years of second chances and resources being thrown at them. You can't reach some folks. You can stop them from reaching you.
    - andrewxdiamond 7y ago
      > I will not believe this when a person is involved in violent acts, rape, murder, etc. which nobody "needs" to do to survive. Agreed. There is a spectrum of individuals, and not everyone is good. However, if you break down the types of crime, non-violent crimes are very much the majority (0). Most people don't like hurting other people. If you want an example of a working system with the mentality of "Rehabilitate over Punish", see many of the Nordic countries (1). > in the past decade, the number of Swedish prisoners has dropped from 5,722 to 4,500 out of a population of 9.5 million. The country has closed a number of prisons, and the recidivism rate is around 40%, which is far less than in the U.S. and most European countries. You can argue this is due to other factors such as overall wealth of the nation, but that further proves my point that crime is more often an act of desperation rather than one of sadism. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_the_United_States [1] https://www.mic.com/articles/109138/sweden-has-done-for-its-prisoners-what-the-u-s-won-t https://www.mic.com/articles/109138/sweden-has-done-for-its-...

Rikers is a nasty place. I know guards that work there. Very soul crushing. Borough jails aren't going to be any easier to maintain if the federal ones are anything to go by.

core-questions 7y ago

Isn't that supposed to be part of the dissuading nature of punishment? Like, aren't we supposed to deter the more basal among us from committing crimes based on their fear of what will happen to them? Obviously not to the extent of cruel and unusual punishment, but having a rough go of things seems reasonable enough for a jail environment. It's not a damned country club.

fossuser 7y ago
I think Rikers goes beyond that. Preet Bharara talks about it in his book (specifically an example where a guard beats a prisoner awaiting trial to death along with examples of other problems). Some places may be so problematic they are beyond reform.
tqi 7y ago
Except the vast majority (85% according to this NYT article [1]) of Rikers inmates are pretrial detainees, ie people who have not been convicted of anything. Many are there because they can't afford bail, meaning they are in effect being punished for being poor. Also I disagree that the conditions in jail are part of the punishment. I think the punishment is supposed to be the loss of freedom, not the risk of harm at the hands of other inmates. [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2014/12/16/nyregion/what-is-happening-at-rikers-island.html https://www.nytimes.com/2014/12/16/nyregion/what-is-happenin...
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
andrewxdiamond 7y ago
As it turns out, not many people commit crimes because they are fun. Deterrents like hash punishments work, but only to the extent that the person has an option. Many people who turn to crime have no or few professional skills, and would struggle to make a living completely legitimately. Hence, they do what anyone would do in that situation, and commit crime to survive. And when individuals are locked away in prisons for years at a time with no rehabilitation, nothing's really changed. They are still in the same situation as before, except now they have a criminal record, making their situation even more dire. This leads to a revolving door effect where many individuals end up back in the same prison they just left. Not only does this ruin the person's life, it also costs the public in both lost productivity, and costs associated with housing imprisoned individuals. Many modern countries short circuit this cycle by educating and rehabilitating imprisoned individuals so by the time they leave their cells they are ready to join the economy as an effective worker. Think of it this way, if your child was struggling to get passing grades in school, what would be more effective? Locking them in their room with a book, or hiring a tutor?
- core-questions 7y ago
  > Hence, they do what anyone would do in that situation, and commit crime to survive. I will believe this when a person is stealing food, or even selling drugs. I will not believe this when a person is involved in violent acts, rape, murder, etc. which nobody "needs" to do to survive. > Not only does this ruin the person's life Arguably already ruined before they went to jail, in terms of their trajectory. Very, very few of these people are on the cusp of turning their lives around; it seems much more likely that they're just on the verge of getting caught, time and time again, until it finally happens. > it also costs the public in both lost productivity I don't believe this. It's rare that someone in this situation would have been productive at all, their entire lives, if the standard of "productive" is "pays more into the tax system than they take out". Even if they never went to jail, there's no reason to assume they'd be helping society somehow with their presence. And what of the many other unemployed non-criminals who could be being productive in whatever role you're imagining for our criminal sort? If we're worried about lost productivity, surely they come first. > Many modern countries short circuit this cycle by educating and rehabilitating imprisoned individuals so by the time they leave their cells they are ready to join the economy as an effective worker. This is such an academic view of the issue. Ex-cons seldom get any kind of good job - they're relegated to taking jobs that are stuck hiring them because they literally cannot find anyone else at their price point. > Think of it this way, if your child was struggling to get passing grades in school, what would be more effective? Locking them in their room with a book, or hiring a tutor? What an utterly vapid comparison. Struggling to get good grades is not even remotely the same thing as committing crimes; and it's not like most of these criminal sorts haven't had 18 years of second chances and resources being thrown at them. You can't reach some folks. You can stop them from reaching you.
  - andrewxdiamond 7y ago
    > I will not believe this when a person is involved in violent acts, rape, murder, etc. which nobody "needs" to do to survive. Agreed. There is a spectrum of individuals, and not everyone is good. However, if you break down the types of crime, non-violent crimes are very much the majority (0). Most people don't like hurting other people. If you want an example of a working system with the mentality of "Rehabilitate over Punish", see many of the Nordic countries (1). > in the past decade, the number of Swedish prisoners has dropped from 5,722 to 4,500 out of a population of 9.5 million. The country has closed a number of prisons, and the recidivism rate is around 40%, which is far less than in the U.S. and most European countries. You can argue this is due to other factors such as overall wealth of the nation, but that further proves my point that crime is more often an act of desperation rather than one of sadism. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_the_United_States [1] https://www.mic.com/articles/109138/sweden-has-done-for-its-prisoners-what-the-u-s-won-t https://www.mic.com/articles/109138/sweden-has-done-for-its-...