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A great sorrow I think. Not for Christianity per se but all that comes with it. What is most essentially "home" in the world is the set of rituals you make for

A great sorrow I think. Not for Christianity per se but all that comes with it. What is most essentially "home" in the world is the set of rituals you make for yourself and others, things that allow you to dwell more poetically in place. Traditional rituals, like those found in religions, enhance our sense of belonging in the world, or if the world is a rough and scary place, at least within a society. I think we do not have the words for all the good parts of religion and ritual, and because they are not easily articulated, they are easily dismissed as irrational or nonexistent. People instead will attack any religion, or any set of rituals that are not easily explained with a dollar value, gleefully as things that need to die, in service of a more rational world, by which they only mean a world more easily explainable to them. Since they cannot easily explain what's lost, they assume it must be nothing. I think this is a mistake due to a lack of attention. People do not think about this, for that matter I fear people hardly think of our sense of dwelling and belonging at all. Culturally, the idea of "belonging" anywhere has been entirely subsumed by "wandering"[note]. This makes for a more consumer-friendly world, but a much less nice one to live in day to day. I fear that until we have the easy words to properly describe what it is we have lost, people will simply continue to cheer its loss, perhaps pausing once in a while to wonder aloud why they feel somewhat lost. [note] ask people about their aspirational hobbies, they are amost always quick to point to "travel", and "experiences". Weirdly a lot of the "experiences" wording people use comes from a study commissioned by LivingSocial ("millennials prefer experiences over things", as if that's the dichotomy) to hawk the selling of experiences. The pseudostudy seems to be outliving the failed company.

dangus 7y ago
I would guess that the high level of religious affiliation in the United States is somewhat abnormal for a developed and wealthy country. Can you find another Western nation out there with similar levels of religious affiliation? I think I see this decline as a correction. It's not actually normal to have so many people finding religion important to their lives in a large, connected, developed society. The USA's unique history and geography lent itself to high levels of religious affiliation, but since the Internet has connected us all a little closer, it's been harder for religious institutions and religious parents to prevent younger people from obtaining unfiltered information. Enjoyable secular rituals are also easy to find if you look right in front of you - the Thanksgiving Day parade, the SuperBowl, Halloween and Trick-or-Treating, Valentine's Day, city-wide marathons, County Fairs, street festivals, etc...the list is nearly endless. And tradition itself isn't a religion or belief in something. The fact that the Catholic church has you cross yourself, stand and sit at specific times, or eat a cracker are not examples a belief in anything, they are physical ritual and tradition. One can partake in all those activities without having a thought in their mind. There are also secular traditions that have no root in surviving religions, like putting a tree in your house during the holiday season. Plenty of atheists put up "Christmas trees" because it's fun!
- simonsarris 7y ago
  There are so many implied claims in what you say, it is difficult to give a response. We would almost certainly be talking past each other. > I think I see this decline as a correction. It's not actually normal to have so many people finding religion important to their lives in a ... Why use that as your normative base? Why not say that everything after, say, Descartes or Jesus or the printing press is abnormal level of religion, and that we are in a lull of divinity? Why do you think anything about the religiosity of anyone in the last 1-30 centuries is normal? > in a large, connected ... but since the Internet has connected us all ... Are we in a large, connected society? Has the internet really done as you say?
  - dangus 7y ago
    The normative base I’m talking about is the religious importance levels in various countries: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Importance_of_religion_by_country https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Importance_of_religion_by_coun... The United States is one of the most religious countries for being as wealthy and developed as it is. Many of the similarly developed nations that remain religious are the oil theocracies. As I mentioned, the Internet has allowed people to read opinions beyond their own filtered literature. A religious school or household won’t buy books that question religion. But an entire generation (the millennials shown in the article) grew up with Internet connections that largely took them beyond those filters. I know that part is speculation on my end, but eliminating the Internet’s role in inter-connectivity as a possibility is an odd hypothesis. I have friends in Japan in shared interest groups for Japanese pop stars, how would that have happened before the Internet? Writing letters?
- tzs 7y ago
  I haven't found any good source of religious affiliation data, but if instead we go by what percentage of the population say that religion is important in their life, a lot of Western nations had a higher percentage than the US according to a 2009 Gallup poll [1]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Importance_of_religion_by_country https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Importance_of_religion_by_coun...
diego_moita 7y ago
As someone that has lived in 4 countries, gone through 2 nationalities, 3 languages and 3 professional careers, I strongly disagree. I suspect your "sense of belonging" is just lazy accommodation or fear of change. Culture, social or personal, can't evolve without changing. You don't become a better person if you don't change your habits, rituals and your deep rooted mental frameworks. True, a mind too open doesn't hold nothing of value. But a closed mind is stale, stagnant. And, in a world that changes faster each year, stagnation is danger, it is not safe. I suggest you to embrace change with all its dangers and opportunities.
- simonsarris 7y ago
  I am somewhat baffled. > You don't become a better person if you don't change your habits, rituals and your deep rooted mental frameworks. You think, say, monks or rabbis are worse persons, then? Certainly to you they are stale, as you say? What about Homer, whose rituals you may imagine never changed in his lifetime. Was he a worse person, and lazier, than someone modern, who changes them often?
  - diego_moita 7y ago
    > You think, say, monks or rabbis are worse persons, then? I don't know any rabbi, only catholic monks. These monks I met are lovely people, in a moral sense. In an intellectual or cultural level not so much. The world and culture has become much bigger than their ancient readings. However, I suspect their character and good nature is not so much a result of their "belonging". After all they "belong" to the same Catholic church that was, for so long, a shelter for pedophiles. > What about Homer, whose rituals you may imagine never changed in his lifetime. With all respect for Homer and classic Greek culture I need to stress that the pace of change today is much more accelerated than in ancient cultures. Classic Greek culture is indeed the foundation of all western culture and certainly deserves to be studied by anyone seeking enlightment. But the logic, political philosophy and worldview we have today is an huge improvement over them. Every year are adding much more to our knowledge than within Homer's lifetime.
thatswrong0 7y ago
I think some people _have_ found that though in other places. I look at music and going to shows and the community I’m a part of there and do see the sense of belonging and care that you might find in a religious setting.. hell when we go see our favorite artists, I call it “going to church”.

dangus 7y ago

I would guess that the high level of religious affiliation in the United States is somewhat abnormal for a developed and wealthy country. Can you find another Western nation out there with similar levels of religious affiliation? I think I see this decline as a correction. It's not actually normal to have so many people finding religion important to their lives in a large, connected, developed society. The USA's unique history and geography lent itself to high levels of religious affiliation, but since the Internet has connected us all a little closer, it's been harder for religious institutions and religious parents to prevent younger people from obtaining unfiltered information. Enjoyable secular rituals are also easy to find if you look right in front of you - the Thanksgiving Day parade, the SuperBowl, Halloween and Trick-or-Treating, Valentine's Day, city-wide marathons, County Fairs, street festivals, etc...the list is nearly endless. And tradition itself isn't a religion or belief in something. The fact that the Catholic church has you cross yourself, stand and sit at specific times, or eat a cracker are not examples a belief in anything, they are physical ritual and tradition. One can partake in all those activities without having a thought in their mind. There are also secular traditions that have no root in surviving religions, like putting a tree in your house during the holiday season. Plenty of atheists put up "Christmas trees" because it's fun!

simonsarris 7y ago
There are so many implied claims in what you say, it is difficult to give a response. We would almost certainly be talking past each other. > I think I see this decline as a correction. It's not actually normal to have so many people finding religion important to their lives in a ... Why use that as your normative base? Why not say that everything after, say, Descartes or Jesus or the printing press is abnormal level of religion, and that we are in a lull of divinity? Why do you think anything about the religiosity of anyone in the last 1-30 centuries is normal? > in a large, connected ... but since the Internet has connected us all ... Are we in a large, connected society? Has the internet really done as you say?
- dangus 7y ago
  The normative base I’m talking about is the religious importance levels in various countries: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Importance_of_religion_by_country https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Importance_of_religion_by_coun... The United States is one of the most religious countries for being as wealthy and developed as it is. Many of the similarly developed nations that remain religious are the oil theocracies. As I mentioned, the Internet has allowed people to read opinions beyond their own filtered literature. A religious school or household won’t buy books that question religion. But an entire generation (the millennials shown in the article) grew up with Internet connections that largely took them beyond those filters. I know that part is speculation on my end, but eliminating the Internet’s role in inter-connectivity as a possibility is an odd hypothesis. I have friends in Japan in shared interest groups for Japanese pop stars, how would that have happened before the Internet? Writing letters?
tzs 7y ago
I haven't found any good source of religious affiliation data, but if instead we go by what percentage of the population say that religion is important in their life, a lot of Western nations had a higher percentage than the US according to a 2009 Gallup poll [1]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Importance_of_religion_by_country https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Importance_of_religion_by_coun...

diego_moita 7y ago

As someone that has lived in 4 countries, gone through 2 nationalities, 3 languages and 3 professional careers, I strongly disagree. I suspect your "sense of belonging" is just lazy accommodation or fear of change. Culture, social or personal, can't evolve without changing. You don't become a better person if you don't change your habits, rituals and your deep rooted mental frameworks. True, a mind too open doesn't hold nothing of value. But a closed mind is stale, stagnant. And, in a world that changes faster each year, stagnation is danger, it is not safe. I suggest you to embrace change with all its dangers and opportunities.

simonsarris 7y ago
I am somewhat baffled. > You don't become a better person if you don't change your habits, rituals and your deep rooted mental frameworks. You think, say, monks or rabbis are worse persons, then? Certainly to you they are stale, as you say? What about Homer, whose rituals you may imagine never changed in his lifetime. Was he a worse person, and lazier, than someone modern, who changes them often?
- diego_moita 7y ago
  > You think, say, monks or rabbis are worse persons, then? I don't know any rabbi, only catholic monks. These monks I met are lovely people, in a moral sense. In an intellectual or cultural level not so much. The world and culture has become much bigger than their ancient readings. However, I suspect their character and good nature is not so much a result of their "belonging". After all they "belong" to the same Catholic church that was, for so long, a shelter for pedophiles. > What about Homer, whose rituals you may imagine never changed in his lifetime. With all respect for Homer and classic Greek culture I need to stress that the pace of change today is much more accelerated than in ancient cultures. Classic Greek culture is indeed the foundation of all western culture and certainly deserves to be studied by anyone seeking enlightment. But the logic, political philosophy and worldview we have today is an huge improvement over them. Every year are adding much more to our knowledge than within Homer's lifetime.

thatswrong0 7y ago

I think some people _have_ found that though in other places. I look at music and going to shows and the community I’m a part of there and do see the sense of belonging and care that you might find in a religious setting.. hell when we go see our favorite artists, I call it “going to church”.