4 ms·

Assuming there is direct causation here rather than simple correlation I'll take it. The long term harms of religion far outweigh these items. You don't have to

Assuming there is direct causation here rather than simple correlation I'll take it. The long term harms of religion far outweigh these items. You don't have to look much further than the death toll in the middle east for an example.

jumpman500 7y ago
You’re being unfair to gscott. He didn’t make a causation claim.
- ceejayoz 7y ago
  Just a heavy implication.
- kennymeyers 7y ago
  It's implied considering how irrelevant those statistics are to this conversation.
  - jumpman500 7y ago
    I think it’s ok to bring up anecdotes as long as you don’t outright say they’re causal.
hinkley 7y ago
One of the services a church provides is a community. For some religions it’s wielded as a weapon though. Leave, and lose everything. Take a peek at /r/exmormon for a bunch of examples. What people need is a secular community to replace it, and not all find it. Some of the things listed above are exacerbated by feelings of isolation or lack of purpose. A lie is best concealed between two truths. Churches know how to organize people. It’s a rare set of people management skills that has nothing specific to do with the Divine. They’ve just had more opportunity to hone those skills. But as humans we often trust people who show expertise in multiple areas to be telling us the truth about other things as well. There are plenty of good things that happen at churches, but they don’t have to happen at a church. And the more they happen in the secular world, the more people figure out they can pick and chose things that make them feel like decent human beings without signing up for the others. That’s either a terrifying or comforting statement, depending on which way you are coming from.
- dangus 7y ago
  To take your point further, gangs also provide community, in a very negative way to the rest of society. So do volunteer organizations and other secular institutions and groups like book clubs, fitness groups, tabletop game players, Pokemon Go players, etc. Back to my own speculation, I'd surmise that a lot of people who go to church may go for the community or personal connections, and may not even believe in the dogma. Many times I've been to church enough times to have listened to frequent sermons about maintaining faith, and those sermons always puzzle me - why do these churchgoers have such difficulty maintaining faith to the point where the preacher has to bring it up regularly?
- keithnoizu 7y ago
  I absolutely agree. America really needs some mandatory citizen participation program. Force everyone to work 5 hours a month towards some project while increasing social cohesion.
  - hinkley 7y ago
    It doesn’t need to be mandatory if someone makes them fashionable. We have plenty of other colors besides Pink and (RED), for instance.
LoSboccacc 7y ago
Christianity had their issue and politicized Christianity had done enormous damage to our society trough bigotry, segregation and straight up wars, but it got better in the recent decades and meanwhile it's by no means perfect we're throwing away the only western moral framework with no replacement in sight. this will do a number on society coesion and it's already visibile in certain aspects.
lorriman 7y ago
The Middle-East was actually pretty Ok until the secular West decided to interfere and upset the balance of powers. As for harm more generally, historically religious wars are at 7% of the total. But it's also arguable that religion has suppressed more wars than caused. For instance, most of the religions are strong on self-control, against anger and intemperate behaviour. Christianity has "Love your enemies and pray for them", "Do good to those who do ill to you" "Never stop forgiving...." "Do not judge and you will not be judged" "Mercy will be show to the merciful" etc etc etc. It was famous for a list of such principles and behaviour, but somehow seems to have been forgotten and instead has become the religion of hate?!?! Religious principles and morality laws, and especially Christian ones as above which are quotes, also enhance community stability and harmony. They're a recipe for happy families, peaceful communities....

jumpman500 7y ago

You’re being unfair to gscott. He didn’t make a causation claim.

ceejayoz 7y ago
Just a heavy implication.
kennymeyers 7y ago
It's implied considering how irrelevant those statistics are to this conversation.
- jumpman500 7y ago
  I think it’s ok to bring up anecdotes as long as you don’t outright say they’re causal.

hinkley 7y ago

One of the services a church provides is a community. For some religions it’s wielded as a weapon though. Leave, and lose everything. Take a peek at /r/exmormon for a bunch of examples. What people need is a secular community to replace it, and not all find it. Some of the things listed above are exacerbated by feelings of isolation or lack of purpose. A lie is best concealed between two truths. Churches know how to organize people. It’s a rare set of people management skills that has nothing specific to do with the Divine. They’ve just had more opportunity to hone those skills. But as humans we often trust people who show expertise in multiple areas to be telling us the truth about other things as well. There are plenty of good things that happen at churches, but they don’t have to happen at a church. And the more they happen in the secular world, the more people figure out they can pick and chose things that make them feel like decent human beings without signing up for the others. That’s either a terrifying or comforting statement, depending on which way you are coming from.

dangus 7y ago
To take your point further, gangs also provide community, in a very negative way to the rest of society. So do volunteer organizations and other secular institutions and groups like book clubs, fitness groups, tabletop game players, Pokemon Go players, etc. Back to my own speculation, I'd surmise that a lot of people who go to church may go for the community or personal connections, and may not even believe in the dogma. Many times I've been to church enough times to have listened to frequent sermons about maintaining faith, and those sermons always puzzle me - why do these churchgoers have such difficulty maintaining faith to the point where the preacher has to bring it up regularly?
keithnoizu 7y ago
I absolutely agree. America really needs some mandatory citizen participation program. Force everyone to work 5 hours a month towards some project while increasing social cohesion.
- hinkley 7y ago
  It doesn’t need to be mandatory if someone makes them fashionable. We have plenty of other colors besides Pink and (RED), for instance.

LoSboccacc 7y ago

Christianity had their issue and politicized Christianity had done enormous damage to our society trough bigotry, segregation and straight up wars, but it got better in the recent decades and meanwhile it's by no means perfect we're throwing away the only western moral framework with no replacement in sight. this will do a number on society coesion and it's already visibile in certain aspects.

lorriman 7y ago

The Middle-East was actually pretty Ok until the secular West decided to interfere and upset the balance of powers. As for harm more generally, historically religious wars are at 7% of the total. But it's also arguable that religion has suppressed more wars than caused. For instance, most of the religions are strong on self-control, against anger and intemperate behaviour. Christianity has "Love your enemies and pray for them", "Do good to those who do ill to you" "Never stop forgiving...." "Do not judge and you will not be judged" "Mercy will be show to the merciful" etc etc etc. It was famous for a list of such principles and behaviour, but somehow seems to have been forgotten and instead has become the religion of hate?!?! Religious principles and morality laws, and especially Christian ones as above which are quotes, also enhance community stability and harmony. They're a recipe for happy families, peaceful communities....