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A world divided into provinces... A world divided into counties... A world divided into cities... Sub-jurisdictions are a fact of life.

Someone 7y ago
The claim isn’t that subdivisions are evil, it is that we should aim for a tree, not a forest. When “city” was the top-level structure, there was more than one, and cities had conflicts (economical and wars). Countries solve that problem, but, because there’s more than one country, introduce the problem that countries had conflicts. Country groups (Germany, the USA, the EU, NATO, Warschau pact) solve that problem, but, because there’s more than one, introduce the problem that country groups have confocts. The UN, in theory, solves that, and, because there’s only one, don’t introduce another, but it isn’t powerful enough.
- solidsnack9000 7y ago
  I worry about the picture you are painting. Most of the time there was organization at all these levels — the Attic city states understood themselves to be Greeks — for centuries before the efficiency and effectiveness of the higher order ones reached a degree where they could be useful. Part of what makes them work at all is actually the degree to which they are counter-balanced by the subordinate ones. It is possible the UN simply isn’t structured enough to address conflicts. For example, could the recent conflict over postal rates have gone through the UN? Adding “power” to the top does not necessarily create an upper layer that leads to stability. The Roman emperor was very powerful; but the effect was a lot internal conflict and war. The balanced states we have seen in recent years — more effective than what preceded them, though in a legal sense much less powerful — are doing well at abating internal conflict in part by reducing the stakes.
- gpderetta 7y ago
  We have been always at war with Mars.
  - TeMPOraL 7y ago
    First we have to colonize it. And maybe then we'll pick up on the pattern and go straight for the United Federation of Planets.
- gmueckl 7y ago
  More than that, creating a joint governing body tends to create possibilities and incentives for peaceful conflict resolution that stabilize the area. For example, Europe has been war-torn for many centuries before the unification started after World War II. Since then, central and west Europe have had the longest period of peace in 500 years.
  - big_chungus 7y ago
    You have an incredible number of confounding variables here. Most of Europe was rebuilt by the Marshall Plan and had time to settle under the Pax Americana. There was also the dawn of digital technology and the information, unification against the communist threat, a massive increase in standard of living, significant economic pivots, a removal of monarchs and a reduction of the powers of those who remained, etc. I can't say there was no effect, but I sincerely doubt it was the sole driver of peace in Europe. Also recall that the EU wasn't formed until the early 90's, but Europe has been largely at peace since WWII.
    - gmueckl 7y ago
      No, this is not as complex as you make it out to be. First, the unification of Europa as a process started back to the 1950s. The EU isnkust the latest if a series of institutions that were founded and replaced in pursuit of that goal. Second, if you look at the western European countries before 1945 you will see that they had been quick to go to war with each other consistently throughout history. War was merely a tool, a way to continue policy making by other means. This approach got out of comtrol and caused World War I. World War II was cause by mad men who stoped at nothing to inflict as much death and damage as they could possibly do. Tjose horrors made the survivors realize that Europe cannot go on like this. This is what led de Gaulle, the former commander of the French army to approach the West German Chancellor Adenauer and ask for cooperation in building something that guarantees lomg term stability on the continent. There are approximately 30 countries on this continent. With so many actors, the chances of enduring peace over long periods of time are rather slim, no matter the external circumstances. Just look at prevalence of armed conflicts in the rest of the world.
- TeMPOraL 7y ago
  Yup. Exactly what I meant. Subdivisions are necessary to manage complexity, but as you said, it's about having a tree rather than a forest. It's about having an organization at the top capable of encouraging cooperation and preventing competition between nation states.

Someone 7y ago

The claim isn’t that subdivisions are evil, it is that we should aim for a tree, not a forest. When “city” was the top-level structure, there was more than one, and cities had conflicts (economical and wars). Countries solve that problem, but, because there’s more than one country, introduce the problem that countries had conflicts. Country groups (Germany, the USA, the EU, NATO, Warschau pact) solve that problem, but, because there’s more than one, introduce the problem that country groups have confocts. The UN, in theory, solves that, and, because there’s only one, don’t introduce another, but it isn’t powerful enough.

solidsnack9000 7y ago
I worry about the picture you are painting. Most of the time there was organization at all these levels — the Attic city states understood themselves to be Greeks — for centuries before the efficiency and effectiveness of the higher order ones reached a degree where they could be useful. Part of what makes them work at all is actually the degree to which they are counter-balanced by the subordinate ones. It is possible the UN simply isn’t structured enough to address conflicts. For example, could the recent conflict over postal rates have gone through the UN? Adding “power” to the top does not necessarily create an upper layer that leads to stability. The Roman emperor was very powerful; but the effect was a lot internal conflict and war. The balanced states we have seen in recent years — more effective than what preceded them, though in a legal sense much less powerful — are doing well at abating internal conflict in part by reducing the stakes.
gpderetta 7y ago
We have been always at war with Mars.
- TeMPOraL 7y ago
  First we have to colonize it. And maybe then we'll pick up on the pattern and go straight for the United Federation of Planets.
gmueckl 7y ago
More than that, creating a joint governing body tends to create possibilities and incentives for peaceful conflict resolution that stabilize the area. For example, Europe has been war-torn for many centuries before the unification started after World War II. Since then, central and west Europe have had the longest period of peace in 500 years.
- big_chungus 7y ago
  You have an incredible number of confounding variables here. Most of Europe was rebuilt by the Marshall Plan and had time to settle under the Pax Americana. There was also the dawn of digital technology and the information, unification against the communist threat, a massive increase in standard of living, significant economic pivots, a removal of monarchs and a reduction of the powers of those who remained, etc. I can't say there was no effect, but I sincerely doubt it was the sole driver of peace in Europe. Also recall that the EU wasn't formed until the early 90's, but Europe has been largely at peace since WWII.
  - gmueckl 7y ago
    No, this is not as complex as you make it out to be. First, the unification of Europa as a process started back to the 1950s. The EU isnkust the latest if a series of institutions that were founded and replaced in pursuit of that goal. Second, if you look at the western European countries before 1945 you will see that they had been quick to go to war with each other consistently throughout history. War was merely a tool, a way to continue policy making by other means. This approach got out of comtrol and caused World War I. World War II was cause by mad men who stoped at nothing to inflict as much death and damage as they could possibly do. Tjose horrors made the survivors realize that Europe cannot go on like this. This is what led de Gaulle, the former commander of the French army to approach the West German Chancellor Adenauer and ask for cooperation in building something that guarantees lomg term stability on the continent. There are approximately 30 countries on this continent. With so many actors, the chances of enduring peace over long periods of time are rather slim, no matter the external circumstances. Just look at prevalence of armed conflicts in the rest of the world.
TeMPOraL 7y ago
Yup. Exactly what I meant. Subdivisions are necessary to manage complexity, but as you said, it's about having a tree rather than a forest. It's about having an organization at the top capable of encouraging cooperation and preventing competition between nation states.