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> people willingly bringing always on listening devices in to their homes <...> I just can't comprehend it. The reason is "people" lack education in technology

> people willingly bringing always on listening devices in to their homes <...> I just can't comprehend it. The reason is "people" lack education in technology. They can barely use a computer these days, with "using a computer" generally means being on Facebook with a browser. There's a very significant divide in this regard that has been growing for decades. And it isn't getting any better. This is why it is nearly impossible to convince people you know to use better passwords and adopt security and privacy-conscious behaviors. I don't know if you (plural) have experienced this, I know a few people for whom sending a link via email is a challenge. They think they sent you a link and what you get is unusable. No, it isn't about age at all. Smart phones and tablets have changed the relationship people have with computers. They make things very easy to use and require almost no technological knowledge to operate. In computers, the browser or Chromebooks do the same. Add it all up and the idea that someone does not even remotely think that a thermostat could be recording every word being said in home doesn't even cross their minds. Going beyond that, thinking about how and where that data is stored and how it could be used it yet another level. All this says it is the responsibility of the tech community to make sure customers understand the important aspects of the technology we provide.

pintxo 7y ago
> All this says it is the responsibility of the tech community to make sure customers understand the important aspects of the technology we provide. Which is difficult as long as some peoples income depends on not making sure that customers understand. As much as I'd like to pretend we are all morally and ethically acting grown ups, reality tells us we are not. Ultimately this needs to be regulated by law and continually enforced. It seems like regulation is slowly rolling in, but enforcement seems to still be far out.
qroshan 7y ago
"The reason is "people" lack education in technology" This is a dumb statement. Lots of tech people use all of these devices. In fact smart tech people differentiate between machine listening and humans listening. A Math, Tech person know that the probability of a human listening to my recording is close 0.000001%. Humans, including yourself, make far worse decisions every day in your life that have much higher detrimental effect to your overall quality of life than worrying about stupid things
- spunker540 7y ago
  Yeah I’m a software engineer for GAFAM, am fully tech literate and I like my Echo Dot. I’m simply not concerned about the privacy issues. I have yet to see evidence that they are using my data in any way that I would object to. I thought it’d be fun to go back through my two years of recordings to see if it captured any accidental conversations, and it was so boring to go through. They are entirely expected questions like “what time is it” “what’s the weather today” “set a timer” “what’s the cubs score” “when do the cubs play” “how many games back are the cubs” “how many games left are in the cubs season” “Do the cubs even have a chance at this point”
  - cameronbrown 7y ago
    I'm also a GAFAM engineer. (Personal opinion ahead etc..) I agree with you that nobody is listening and it isn't valuable data even if they were.. My biggest issue is that the devices are a black box. Nobody knows if they're hacked or compromised which is why hardware disabled buttons. More transparency is critical. I think I should be able to monitor all of my smart devices' activity with as much done on device as possible. Apple and (now) Google have made strides with on-device ML lately - I hope things continue down this path.
- robomartin 7y ago
  >> "The reason is "people" lack education in technology" > This is a dumb statement. How about doing a bit of research before saying stuff like that? For example: https://lifehacker.com/this-chart-shows-how-computer-literate-most-people-are-1789761598 https://lifehacker.com/this-chart-shows-how-computer-literat... From the article: "The results aren’t terribly surprising if you’ve ever worked a help desk. Around 5% of the U.S. population ranks at level 3, the strongest level of computer literacy. Another 26% ranks at level 2, where users can do things like “find a sustainability-related document that was sent to you by John Smith in October last year.” Those who ranked in level 2 likely aren’t developers or engineers, but they get by. However, for the 69% of the population below level 2, complex skills are still hard to come by. 26% of people weren’t even able to use computers. The full report at the source link below shows how these numbers break down over age ranges. Regardless, the numbers give some perspective on how skilled the overall population is." And this is about using a computer. Understanding technology in general is a very different matter. The data on this isn't difficult to discover. There have been a number of studies, for example: https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2014/12/04/half-of-americans-dont-know-what-a-privacy-policy-is/ https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2014/12/04/half-of-ame... The vast majority of the population is utterly ignorant when it comes to technology. Start adding areas like machine learning and AI and the chasm is massive, deep and wide. Using tech people to claim this problem does not exists and, therefore, calling the statement "stupid", betrays a failure to understand the topic at hand. The same is true about medical knowledge. The vast majority of the population is utterly ignorant about medical science, pharmacology, etc. Claiming this statement is "stupid" because doctors, nurses and medical practitioners do, in fact, understand the domain, is, again, missing the point. And missing reality. The example is useful because, unlike in the general case of technology, the medical sector has a range of safeguards, rules and laws in place in order to protect consumers. Very little, if any, of that exists in technology. You can manufacture and sell a 3D printer that can fail and burn down someone's house. There is not FDA equivalent in order to ensure some level of safety exists as a minimum. If you think FCC, UL, CE and TUV provide those safeguards, well, you are obviously not in the hardware business. This is particularly true for the utter junk that comes from China, where these certifications are given away like candy and ar sometimes falsified. And so, you can insert a microphone and a camera into a consumer device and there really isn't anything preventing anyone from using those sensors nefariously. This is particularly true if the device's firmware and software can be updated over the 'net. Which means you can ship a device that can test out to be completely benign. Later on the same device is updated over the net to include obtrusive capabilities that compromise privacy, and nobody is there to prevent that. And then, of course, there's this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0vL4HLTZQ_Q https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0vL4HLTZQ_Q and this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-lMIGV-dUI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-lMIGV-dUI ...and who can forget this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aHGd6LqAVzw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aHGd6LqAVzw

pintxo 7y ago

> All this says it is the responsibility of the tech community to make sure customers understand the important aspects of the technology we provide. Which is difficult as long as some peoples income depends on not making sure that customers understand. As much as I'd like to pretend we are all morally and ethically acting grown ups, reality tells us we are not. Ultimately this needs to be regulated by law and continually enforced. It seems like regulation is slowly rolling in, but enforcement seems to still be far out.

qroshan 7y ago

"The reason is "people" lack education in technology" This is a dumb statement. Lots of tech people use all of these devices. In fact smart tech people differentiate between machine listening and humans listening. A Math, Tech person know that the probability of a human listening to my recording is close 0.000001%. Humans, including yourself, make far worse decisions every day in your life that have much higher detrimental effect to your overall quality of life than worrying about stupid things

spunker540 7y ago
Yeah I’m a software engineer for GAFAM, am fully tech literate and I like my Echo Dot. I’m simply not concerned about the privacy issues. I have yet to see evidence that they are using my data in any way that I would object to. I thought it’d be fun to go back through my two years of recordings to see if it captured any accidental conversations, and it was so boring to go through. They are entirely expected questions like “what time is it” “what’s the weather today” “set a timer” “what’s the cubs score” “when do the cubs play” “how many games back are the cubs” “how many games left are in the cubs season” “Do the cubs even have a chance at this point”
- cameronbrown 7y ago
  I'm also a GAFAM engineer. (Personal opinion ahead etc..) I agree with you that nobody is listening and it isn't valuable data even if they were.. My biggest issue is that the devices are a black box. Nobody knows if they're hacked or compromised which is why hardware disabled buttons. More transparency is critical. I think I should be able to monitor all of my smart devices' activity with as much done on device as possible. Apple and (now) Google have made strides with on-device ML lately - I hope things continue down this path.
robomartin 7y ago
>> "The reason is "people" lack education in technology" > This is a dumb statement. How about doing a bit of research before saying stuff like that? For example: https://lifehacker.com/this-chart-shows-how-computer-literate-most-people-are-1789761598 https://lifehacker.com/this-chart-shows-how-computer-literat... From the article: "The results aren’t terribly surprising if you’ve ever worked a help desk. Around 5% of the U.S. population ranks at level 3, the strongest level of computer literacy. Another 26% ranks at level 2, where users can do things like “find a sustainability-related document that was sent to you by John Smith in October last year.” Those who ranked in level 2 likely aren’t developers or engineers, but they get by. However, for the 69% of the population below level 2, complex skills are still hard to come by. 26% of people weren’t even able to use computers. The full report at the source link below shows how these numbers break down over age ranges. Regardless, the numbers give some perspective on how skilled the overall population is." And this is about using a computer. Understanding technology in general is a very different matter. The data on this isn't difficult to discover. There have been a number of studies, for example: https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2014/12/04/half-of-americans-dont-know-what-a-privacy-policy-is/ https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2014/12/04/half-of-ame... The vast majority of the population is utterly ignorant when it comes to technology. Start adding areas like machine learning and AI and the chasm is massive, deep and wide. Using tech people to claim this problem does not exists and, therefore, calling the statement "stupid", betrays a failure to understand the topic at hand. The same is true about medical knowledge. The vast majority of the population is utterly ignorant about medical science, pharmacology, etc. Claiming this statement is "stupid" because doctors, nurses and medical practitioners do, in fact, understand the domain, is, again, missing the point. And missing reality. The example is useful because, unlike in the general case of technology, the medical sector has a range of safeguards, rules and laws in place in order to protect consumers. Very little, if any, of that exists in technology. You can manufacture and sell a 3D printer that can fail and burn down someone's house. There is not FDA equivalent in order to ensure some level of safety exists as a minimum. If you think FCC, UL, CE and TUV provide those safeguards, well, you are obviously not in the hardware business. This is particularly true for the utter junk that comes from China, where these certifications are given away like candy and ar sometimes falsified. And so, you can insert a microphone and a camera into a consumer device and there really isn't anything preventing anyone from using those sensors nefariously. This is particularly true if the device's firmware and software can be updated over the 'net. Which means you can ship a device that can test out to be completely benign. Later on the same device is updated over the net to include obtrusive capabilities that compromise privacy, and nobody is there to prevent that. And then, of course, there's this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0vL4HLTZQ_Q https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0vL4HLTZQ_Q and this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-lMIGV-dUI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-lMIGV-dUI ...and who can forget this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aHGd6LqAVzw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aHGd6LqAVzw