4 ms·

I sort of agree with the pain guys. I'm currently self employed (US) and have to separately pay estimated taxes quarterly. Since I've been doing this, I'm a lo

I sort of agree with the pain guys. I'm currently self employed (US) and have to separately pay estimated taxes quarterly. Since I've been doing this, I'm a lot more sensitive to politicians who want to raise my taxes. Similarly, there is a group in the US whose main goal is to change the law so that employers can't pay your taxes on your behalf. Instead, you would get your full salary, and then have to write a check to pay your taxes. The group believes this would raise tax awareness.

untog 7y ago
I'm just imagining applying this principle more broadly. Perhaps before every meal I could be forced to calculate the number of calories in each item, total them up and submit them. Maybe before every car journey I could fill out an estimate of the wear and tear on the tyres, gearbox and suspension, and record that in a big log book of car events. Doesn't seem like a particularly useful way to approach life, to me.
- abugheratwork 7y ago
  > Perhaps before every meal I could be forced to calculate the number of calories in each item, total them up and submit them. That's called Weight Watchers. The general principle was pretty effective for me. Most people don't keep a log of wear and tear on their car, but we definitely operate airplanes that way. That also seems pretty productive to me. But yeah, it's not the only way to operate. I don't really like the idea of putting more responsibility on people in order to "raise awareness". I take that to really mean someone would like everyone to be more upset about taxes, and would like to make them less convenient to increase upsetness.
- pfranz 7y ago
  The technique is actually used a lot in diets and budgeting. Manually writing down everything you pay for helps you to notice that taxi you take every day or how often you "splurge" for coffee. Same with calories and that afternoon or midnight snack. But forcing it just wastes everyones time, adds red tape, and additional bureaucracy they purport to rail against.
gugagore 7y ago
I don't understand why the pain of filing is connected to the pain of spending money. If a politician raises taxes, and all it does is change the value of a annual withdrawal on your account, I think that pain would be the same, regardless of difficulty of filing. The pain is estimating and filing 4 times a year.
- pwg 7y ago
  Here in the US there are actually individuals who view their IRS tax refund check that they get back each year from filing their taxes as "getting free money from the government". They simply do not understand the fact that, no, that check is not "free government money" but is instead money that the government took, held onto for free all year, interest free, and then let you have back after you filed the proper forms. So the suggestions to have people cut checks to the government (quarterly, monthly, annually) is generally made from trying to overcome that viewpoint that too many folks view their tax return as some form of "gift" from the government, and instead get them to recognize just how much tax money is being consumed.
  - abugheratwork 7y ago
    That sentiment makes sense to me. Investing in real schooling makes a lot more sense, though.
  - pfranz 7y ago
    Conversely, on my property tax they itemize where the money goes. Presumably showing what I'm getting for my tax money. Or maybe just making me angry how much local schools cost if I don't have kids? (that was the vibe I got when living in FL) I appreciate transparency like that, but I hate other examples that add additional steps or paperwork to the process.
  - gugagore 7y ago
    I am not denying your experience, but I am from the US and this is not my experience at all. It's called a "refund". Which individuals? How do you know these people? Also I don't agree with your perspective on tax withholding. If you don't want your employer to withhold taxes, I think they have to stop withholding taxes. It's a convenient default, in my opinion.
pfranz 7y ago
I understand where their coming from, but adding useless paperwork just inhibits business growth. I'm more sympathetic to writing a check, like you say, but people are horrible with budgeting--which is why you pre-pay quarterly instead of just paying a lump sum at the end of the year.
sokoloff 7y ago
I've often heard (and like) the suggestion that this annual payment be due the week before Election Day.
- HeWhoLurksLate 7y ago
  That'd be interesting!

untog 7y ago

I'm just imagining applying this principle more broadly. Perhaps before every meal I could be forced to calculate the number of calories in each item, total them up and submit them. Maybe before every car journey I could fill out an estimate of the wear and tear on the tyres, gearbox and suspension, and record that in a big log book of car events. Doesn't seem like a particularly useful way to approach life, to me.

abugheratwork 7y ago
> Perhaps before every meal I could be forced to calculate the number of calories in each item, total them up and submit them. That's called Weight Watchers. The general principle was pretty effective for me. Most people don't keep a log of wear and tear on their car, but we definitely operate airplanes that way. That also seems pretty productive to me. But yeah, it's not the only way to operate. I don't really like the idea of putting more responsibility on people in order to "raise awareness". I take that to really mean someone would like everyone to be more upset about taxes, and would like to make them less convenient to increase upsetness.
pfranz 7y ago
The technique is actually used a lot in diets and budgeting. Manually writing down everything you pay for helps you to notice that taxi you take every day or how often you "splurge" for coffee. Same with calories and that afternoon or midnight snack. But forcing it just wastes everyones time, adds red tape, and additional bureaucracy they purport to rail against.

gugagore 7y ago

I don't understand why the pain of filing is connected to the pain of spending money. If a politician raises taxes, and all it does is change the value of a annual withdrawal on your account, I think that pain would be the same, regardless of difficulty of filing. The pain is estimating and filing 4 times a year.

pwg 7y ago
Here in the US there are actually individuals who view their IRS tax refund check that they get back each year from filing their taxes as "getting free money from the government". They simply do not understand the fact that, no, that check is not "free government money" but is instead money that the government took, held onto for free all year, interest free, and then let you have back after you filed the proper forms. So the suggestions to have people cut checks to the government (quarterly, monthly, annually) is generally made from trying to overcome that viewpoint that too many folks view their tax return as some form of "gift" from the government, and instead get them to recognize just how much tax money is being consumed.
- abugheratwork 7y ago
  That sentiment makes sense to me. Investing in real schooling makes a lot more sense, though.
- pfranz 7y ago
  Conversely, on my property tax they itemize where the money goes. Presumably showing what I'm getting for my tax money. Or maybe just making me angry how much local schools cost if I don't have kids? (that was the vibe I got when living in FL) I appreciate transparency like that, but I hate other examples that add additional steps or paperwork to the process.
- gugagore 7y ago
  I am not denying your experience, but I am from the US and this is not my experience at all. It's called a "refund". Which individuals? How do you know these people? Also I don't agree with your perspective on tax withholding. If you don't want your employer to withhold taxes, I think they have to stop withholding taxes. It's a convenient default, in my opinion.

pfranz 7y ago

I understand where their coming from, but adding useless paperwork just inhibits business growth. I'm more sympathetic to writing a check, like you say, but people are horrible with budgeting--which is why you pre-pay quarterly instead of just paying a lump sum at the end of the year.

sokoloff 7y ago

I've often heard (and like) the suggestion that this annual payment be due the week before Election Day.

HeWhoLurksLate 7y ago
That'd be interesting!