4 ms·

So many times this argument comes up and every time I am amazed at how ignorant it seems to me. But it is very hard to discuss... Can't we all just agree that

So many times this argument comes up and every time I am amazed at how ignorant it seems to me. But it is very hard to discuss... Can't we all just agree that what is a valuable use of someones watts or petahashes per second is a subjective choice? That people are free to value their resources as they see fit? You personally might not value securing Bitcoin network, but many other people find it valueable and it is perfectly fine in a free country to allow them do what they please if you are similarly allowed to do what you please (no one forces you to buy Bitcoin miners)?

ben_w 7y ago
No, we can’t agree on that. The problem is the impact these things have on the rest of us when we ourselves have no interest in bitcoin. If bitcoin existed purely inside a virtual world — say, if coin miners were a virtual good that WoW players could buy which made WoW money appear in their inventory according to similar rules but without the actual hard work of computing anything beyond a lightweight O(num_players) random number generator on the server, then it stops being anyone else’s problem.
- Erlich_Bachman 7y ago
  Are my christmas lights that I put on during winter also everyone else's problem because they waste energy (that I bought with my own money)? Are you going to get into my business there as well and tell me what I can and cannot spend my resources on, because you claim that they have an "impact on you and you have no interest in them"? I am pretty sure that the best consensus the western world has come up with is that if there are any externalities, they can simply be taxed in like for example a carbon tax. But telling other people what they should and should not find valueable as if you have some sort of ultimate authority on knowing what is valueable, well, I hope you can already see what is wrong with that. Value is subjective. As in, other people have a right to decide for themselves.
  - ben_w 7y ago
    > Are my christmas lights that I put on during winter also everyone else's problem because they waste energy (that I bought with my own money)? Yes but too little to bother about. Transportation and inefficient heat management are the only common ones that matter. > they can simply be taxed in like for example a carbon tax On that we agree. I believe car fuel is taxed appropriately in the UK, but in general these externalities are not properly accounted for. If they were, it would be a different matter, but they’re not.
    - Erlich_Bachman 7y ago
      People bought the energy with their own money, it's their own business what to do with it. Ie, not your business. Also christmas lights do consume huge amounts of electricity comparable to energy budgets of some countries. https://www.igs.com/energy-resource-center/energy-101/how-much-electricity-do-christmas-lights-use https://www.igs.com/energy-resource-center/energy-101/how-mu...
      - ben_w 7y ago
        Until and unless the carbon taxes are in place, it is everyone’s business. Thank you for the link, I will now update my world model to include that data.

ben_w 7y ago

No, we can’t agree on that. The problem is the impact these things have on the rest of us when we ourselves have no interest in bitcoin. If bitcoin existed purely inside a virtual world — say, if coin miners were a virtual good that WoW players could buy which made WoW money appear in their inventory according to similar rules but without the actual hard work of computing anything beyond a lightweight O(num_players) random number generator on the server, then it stops being anyone else’s problem.

Erlich_Bachman 7y ago
Are my christmas lights that I put on during winter also everyone else's problem because they waste energy (that I bought with my own money)? Are you going to get into my business there as well and tell me what I can and cannot spend my resources on, because you claim that they have an "impact on you and you have no interest in them"? I am pretty sure that the best consensus the western world has come up with is that if there are any externalities, they can simply be taxed in like for example a carbon tax. But telling other people what they should and should not find valueable as if you have some sort of ultimate authority on knowing what is valueable, well, I hope you can already see what is wrong with that. Value is subjective. As in, other people have a right to decide for themselves.
- ben_w 7y ago
  > Are my christmas lights that I put on during winter also everyone else's problem because they waste energy (that I bought with my own money)? Yes but too little to bother about. Transportation and inefficient heat management are the only common ones that matter. > they can simply be taxed in like for example a carbon tax On that we agree. I believe car fuel is taxed appropriately in the UK, but in general these externalities are not properly accounted for. If they were, it would be a different matter, but they’re not.
  - Erlich_Bachman 7y ago
    People bought the energy with their own money, it's their own business what to do with it. Ie, not your business. Also christmas lights do consume huge amounts of electricity comparable to energy budgets of some countries. https://www.igs.com/energy-resource-center/energy-101/how-much-electricity-do-christmas-lights-use https://www.igs.com/energy-resource-center/energy-101/how-mu...
    - ben_w 7y ago
      Until and unless the carbon taxes are in place, it is everyone’s business. Thank you for the link, I will now update my world model to include that data.