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I love Chouinard and Patagonia. Chouinard is one of the early heroes and giants behind the rock climbing scene in Yosemite. That being said Patagonia is as a c

I love Chouinard and Patagonia. Chouinard is one of the early heroes and giants behind the rock climbing scene in Yosemite. That being said Patagonia is as a company that manages to perfectly brand itself as a sustainable company in order to get all the PR and hype coming out from it. They are surfing on the climate change and greenwashing wave more than ever. Yvon has been out of Patagonia's management for a couple of years now.

grzm 7y ago
> "That being said Patagonia is as a company that manages to perfectly brand itself as a sustainable company in order to get all the PR and hype coming out from it." If a company is doing good, should they be allowed to let people know about it? Do you think they're doing this for craven purposes only? Or might they be putting their money where their mouth is and are proud of it? That it might encourage others to make similar decisions in their own lives, both personal and business? I'd like to think that people (and that's what a company is, a group of people) are capable of doing things for reasons other than pure greed or profit. Do you fault people for making purchasing decisions based on the actions of a company in addition to the products or services they provide? Sometimes I wonder what drives people to apparently only see the most cynical view. In my more uncharitable moments I think that's because they can't imagine others doing things because they think they're they right thing to do. And if they can't extend that to others, what does that say about themselves? But perhaps it's just that they've been burned too many times in the past. Whatever the reason, I choose to embrace actions of others that are good. I believe I'm capable of doing good, and that others can, too. There's so many things we need to do together, and cynicism gets in the way of us trusting each other to do it.
- rainyMammoth 7y ago
  You seem to have misunderstood that I meant it as a bad thing: Not at all. I think that Patagonia is 100% committed to being sustainable because it is in their value but also and mainly because it is their market niche and what brings them business. still think it is part of a market strategy. I'm happy that they managed to combine ethics, value and business. It is of course extremely convenient for them that being so ethical is also what makes their business so lucrative. Most companies don't have the luxury to fit a market niche where the target customer are the top 1% of the world (like Patagonia does).
  - grzm 7y ago
    In that case, I'd shy away from using language like > "in order to get all the PR and hype coming out from it." > "surfing on the climate change and greenwashing wave" and > "It is of course extremely convenient for them" These are all phrases often used to signal that their primary motives are something other than what you are claiming to praise them for. (Indeed, you say as much: "mainly because it is their market niche and what brings them business.") Yes, they're a business and to stay in business they to be profitable. What people choose to do to be profitable makes a difference. https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/greenwashing https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/greenwashing > "green· wash· ing ... expressions of environmentalist concerns especially as a cover for products, policies, or activities" https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/hype https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/hype > "hype: ... > 1 : DECEPTION, PUT-ON > 2 : PUBLICITY, especially : promotional publicity of an extravagant or contrived kind"
  - gerbilly 7y ago
    > It is of course extremely convenient for them that being so ethical is also what makes their business so lucrative. I also find it convenient that they will repair their gear, often for free. That means my $300 surfing wetsuit will probably be with me for a long time.
  - kerkeslager 7y ago
    > I think that Patagonia is 100% committed to being sustainable Then you shouldn't have accused them of greenwashing, because that's exactly the opposite of what greenwashing means.
- thrav 7y ago
  Pretty sure they supply military gear, which some feel is not in line with their values (military are massive polluters), but is more profitable and less visible than cutting off the finance guys in vests.
  - gamblor956 7y ago
    Citation needed. They sell apparel to members of the military. AFAIK they don't design or sell military specific items.
kerkeslager 7y ago
"Greenwashing" means they're creating the appearance of being green, without actually being green. Do you have any evidence for this? It's quite the accusation. It wouldn't surprise me--even the best-intentioned companies sometimes keep making compromises to stay profitable until they don't resemble their values any more. Money ruins everything. I just haven't heard anything indicating that money has ruined Patagonia yet.

grzm 7y ago

> "That being said Patagonia is as a company that manages to perfectly brand itself as a sustainable company in order to get all the PR and hype coming out from it." If a company is doing good, should they be allowed to let people know about it? Do you think they're doing this for craven purposes only? Or might they be putting their money where their mouth is and are proud of it? That it might encourage others to make similar decisions in their own lives, both personal and business? I'd like to think that people (and that's what a company is, a group of people) are capable of doing things for reasons other than pure greed or profit. Do you fault people for making purchasing decisions based on the actions of a company in addition to the products or services they provide? Sometimes I wonder what drives people to apparently only see the most cynical view. In my more uncharitable moments I think that's because they can't imagine others doing things because they think they're they right thing to do. And if they can't extend that to others, what does that say about themselves? But perhaps it's just that they've been burned too many times in the past. Whatever the reason, I choose to embrace actions of others that are good. I believe I'm capable of doing good, and that others can, too. There's so many things we need to do together, and cynicism gets in the way of us trusting each other to do it.

rainyMammoth 7y ago
You seem to have misunderstood that I meant it as a bad thing: Not at all. I think that Patagonia is 100% committed to being sustainable because it is in their value but also and mainly because it is their market niche and what brings them business. still think it is part of a market strategy. I'm happy that they managed to combine ethics, value and business. It is of course extremely convenient for them that being so ethical is also what makes their business so lucrative. Most companies don't have the luxury to fit a market niche where the target customer are the top 1% of the world (like Patagonia does).
- grzm 7y ago
  In that case, I'd shy away from using language like > "in order to get all the PR and hype coming out from it." > "surfing on the climate change and greenwashing wave" and > "It is of course extremely convenient for them" These are all phrases often used to signal that their primary motives are something other than what you are claiming to praise them for. (Indeed, you say as much: "mainly because it is their market niche and what brings them business.") Yes, they're a business and to stay in business they to be profitable. What people choose to do to be profitable makes a difference. https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/greenwashing https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/greenwashing > "green· wash· ing ... expressions of environmentalist concerns especially as a cover for products, policies, or activities" https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/hype https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/hype > "hype: ... > 1 : DECEPTION, PUT-ON > 2 : PUBLICITY, especially : promotional publicity of an extravagant or contrived kind"
- gerbilly 7y ago
  > It is of course extremely convenient for them that being so ethical is also what makes their business so lucrative. I also find it convenient that they will repair their gear, often for free. That means my $300 surfing wetsuit will probably be with me for a long time.
- kerkeslager 7y ago
  > I think that Patagonia is 100% committed to being sustainable Then you shouldn't have accused them of greenwashing, because that's exactly the opposite of what greenwashing means.
thrav 7y ago
Pretty sure they supply military gear, which some feel is not in line with their values (military are massive polluters), but is more profitable and less visible than cutting off the finance guys in vests.
- gamblor956 7y ago
  Citation needed. They sell apparel to members of the military. AFAIK they don't design or sell military specific items.

kerkeslager 7y ago

"Greenwashing" means they're creating the appearance of being green, without actually being green. Do you have any evidence for this? It's quite the accusation. It wouldn't surprise me--even the best-intentioned companies sometimes keep making compromises to stay profitable until they don't resemble their values any more. Money ruins everything. I just haven't heard anything indicating that money has ruined Patagonia yet.