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I've heard this hypothesis a lot, but there's something that bothers me about it. If you've ever been passionate about something, something that's hard and tak

I've heard this hypothesis a lot, but there's something that bothers me about it. If you've ever been passionate about something, something that's hard and takes a lot of effort and practice to become good at, would you really let microaggressions stop you from doing that thing? I mean, being a programmer is not exactly a high status thing for white males either. If I tell people I'm a programmer, I generally am competing with the perception that I am socially awkward. People assume I'm like some Big Bang Theory character until I prove otherwise. I don't like that stereotype, but it never stopped me from learning to code, or even was a thought that crossed my mind. Also, how many other industries are or have been actively hostile towards women and still have plenty of females in it? Show business is an obvious example. I'm not saying that things can't or shouldn't be improved, but I feel like the argument that goes "well the nerds are making women uncomfortable" is just a cartoon with very little evidence other than anecdotes.

blintz 7y ago
I think “microagressions” is a bit of an understatement. Also not sure that being stereotyped as “socially awkward” is comparable to experiencing or even just witnessing sexual harassment. Women in tech report more mistreatment than in many other male-dominated industries. See: https://www.axios.com/tech-sexual-harassment-women-silicon-valley-1fa55b9c-2997-49cc-a869-d3cb7334a543.html https://www.axios.com/tech-sexual-harassment-women-silicon-v...
- haberman 7y ago
  In this survey the finding is exactly the opposite: https://slatestarcodex.com/2018/04/17/ssc-survey-results-sexual-harassment-levels-by-field/ https://slatestarcodex.com/2018/04/17/ssc-survey-results-sex...
- overgard 7y ago
  All I see in that link is a VERY vague assertion that some women have received “unwanted physical contact”, which doesnt really mean anything without specifics. That could mean something creepy, or it could mean someone tapping them on the shoulder, or a saleswomans obnoxious insistence on high fiving all the time. And then some persons quoted opinion.
  - wolfd 7y ago
    If someone touched me in any physical way at work I'd say it would be unwanted. It's pretty reasonable to not want other people to touch you, no matter the specific "kind" of touch it is.
    - homonculus1 7y ago
      Every now and then my boss gives me an overly-friendly shoulder pat. It really annoys me, I guess I'm a victim of physical harassment. Should I leave the industry over that?
      - maxerickson 7y ago
        What would you do if you had 8 bosses in a row all do the same thing?
  - zer0tonin 7y ago
    It quite often means something creepy. You shouldn't assume that actual aggression aren't happening just because you have the privilege of not experiencing them.
ananthraghavan 7y ago
>If I tell people I'm a programmer, I generally am competing with the perception that I am socially awkward. People assume I'm like some Big Bang Theory character until I prove otherwise. I don't like that stereotype, but it never stopped me from learning to code, or even was a thought that crossed my mind. People thinking you're socially awkward is different from people sexually harassing you at work.
- overgard 7y ago
  If the issue was as simple as women being sexually harassed it might not be easy to fix but itd be straightforward. But all the evidence suggests its a very nuanced and complicated issue. I don’t think just caricaturing and oversimplifying the issue helps anything.
  - lazyasciiart 7y ago
    I think you did exactly that here and I agree that it is an unhelpful contribution > If you've ever been passionate about something, something that's hard and takes a lot of effort and practice to become good at, would you really let microaggressions stop you from doing that thing?
aiiane 7y ago
> If you've ever been passionate about something, something that's hard and takes a lot of effort and practice to become good at, would you really let microaggressions stop you from doing that thing? Yes, actually, people do this all the time. They find new things to be passionate about if being passionate about something is too painful.
- read_if_gay_ 7y ago
  If you can just go find something new to be passionate about then you're not really passionate about it.
  - throwawaygmhj 7y ago
    It may come as a shock to you but some people have multiple passions in life. Besides, your arguments reeks of the classic gamer 'women are not really into it' take
    - read_if_gay_ 7y ago
      It may come as a shock to you but how many passions you have is not relevant to my argument. And that second part of your post is really damn far fetched. I never even mentioned anything remotely related to gender.
      - em-bee 7y ago
        the second part wasn't about what you said, but an example of how the claim "if a person gives up something, then they weren't passionate enough" is nonsense. to give you a better example: since guido van rossum gave up leadership of python, does that mean that he wasn't passionate enough about it? absolutely not. but how he was treated destroyed his passion, and he couldn't handle it any more and burned out. this is the argument above. women leave despite their passion they got more pain than they could handle. just like guido.
        7y ago

blintz 7y ago

I think “microagressions” is a bit of an understatement. Also not sure that being stereotyped as “socially awkward” is comparable to experiencing or even just witnessing sexual harassment. Women in tech report more mistreatment than in many other male-dominated industries. See: https://www.axios.com/tech-sexual-harassment-women-silicon-valley-1fa55b9c-2997-49cc-a869-d3cb7334a543.html https://www.axios.com/tech-sexual-harassment-women-silicon-v...

haberman 7y ago
In this survey the finding is exactly the opposite: https://slatestarcodex.com/2018/04/17/ssc-survey-results-sexual-harassment-levels-by-field/ https://slatestarcodex.com/2018/04/17/ssc-survey-results-sex...
overgard 7y ago
All I see in that link is a VERY vague assertion that some women have received “unwanted physical contact”, which doesnt really mean anything without specifics. That could mean something creepy, or it could mean someone tapping them on the shoulder, or a saleswomans obnoxious insistence on high fiving all the time. And then some persons quoted opinion.
- wolfd 7y ago
  If someone touched me in any physical way at work I'd say it would be unwanted. It's pretty reasonable to not want other people to touch you, no matter the specific "kind" of touch it is.
  - homonculus1 7y ago
    Every now and then my boss gives me an overly-friendly shoulder pat. It really annoys me, I guess I'm a victim of physical harassment. Should I leave the industry over that?
    - maxerickson 7y ago
      What would you do if you had 8 bosses in a row all do the same thing?
- zer0tonin 7y ago
  It quite often means something creepy. You shouldn't assume that actual aggression aren't happening just because you have the privilege of not experiencing them.

ananthraghavan 7y ago

>If I tell people I'm a programmer, I generally am competing with the perception that I am socially awkward. People assume I'm like some Big Bang Theory character until I prove otherwise. I don't like that stereotype, but it never stopped me from learning to code, or even was a thought that crossed my mind. People thinking you're socially awkward is different from people sexually harassing you at work.

overgard 7y ago
If the issue was as simple as women being sexually harassed it might not be easy to fix but itd be straightforward. But all the evidence suggests its a very nuanced and complicated issue. I don’t think just caricaturing and oversimplifying the issue helps anything.
- lazyasciiart 7y ago
  I think you did exactly that here and I agree that it is an unhelpful contribution > If you've ever been passionate about something, something that's hard and takes a lot of effort and practice to become good at, would you really let microaggressions stop you from doing that thing?

aiiane 7y ago

> If you've ever been passionate about something, something that's hard and takes a lot of effort and practice to become good at, would you really let microaggressions stop you from doing that thing? Yes, actually, people do this all the time. They find new things to be passionate about if being passionate about something is too painful.

read_if_gay_ 7y ago
If you can just go find something new to be passionate about then you're not really passionate about it.
- throwawaygmhj 7y ago
  It may come as a shock to you but some people have multiple passions in life. Besides, your arguments reeks of the classic gamer 'women are not really into it' take
  - read_if_gay_ 7y ago
    It may come as a shock to you but how many passions you have is not relevant to my argument. And that second part of your post is really damn far fetched. I never even mentioned anything remotely related to gender.
    - em-bee 7y ago
      the second part wasn't about what you said, but an example of how the claim "if a person gives up something, then they weren't passionate enough" is nonsense. to give you a better example: since guido van rossum gave up leadership of python, does that mean that he wasn't passionate enough about it? absolutely not. but how he was treated destroyed his passion, and he couldn't handle it any more and burned out. this is the argument above. women leave despite their passion they got more pain than they could handle. just like guido.
      - 7y ago