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This is not a fair comparison. The OC was not talking about proselytizing, they were talking about how to create an inclusive environment at work. We cannot cre

This is not a fair comparison. The OC was not talking about proselytizing, they were talking about how to create an inclusive environment at work. We cannot create an inclusive environment at work if we are not allowed to openly talk about groups who currently do not feel included and why that is.

ddxxdd 7y ago
Common sense states that it's okay to talk about politics insofar as it relates to workplace productivity.
- fwn 7y ago
  > Common sense states that it's okay to talk about politics insofar as it relates to workplace productivity. I don't think this is a sensible idea or common sense. The problem with it is that it's fine as long as science shows our ideal workplace environment as more productive or superior. We can say things like "diverse working environments increase productivity" and act backed by those facts. Problem is that it's not really guaranteed that the mechanisms science might suggest in the future actually do support our ideal workplace conditions. Do we then act on those productivity enhancing ideas as well, even in cases in which they are against our ideals? Would we embrace racism or ageism in the name of productivity? To me normalizing (allegedly) neutral arguments based on productivity feels like a dangerous shortcut.
TeMPOraL 7y ago
Being a preacher does not feel like proselytizing. It feels like focusing people's attention on important issues, and working towards an inclusive* environment conductive to open talk about the most important of issues. * - Inclusive environment obviously cannot include the people who hardened their hearts to God, and apostates who turned their back on the Word of God and only speak to poison the minds of good people.
- undersuit 7y ago
  Why is the preacher at my work? Right? Preacher is a title. Why is the preacher at my work and why are they not just my coworker.
  - TeMPOraL 7y ago
    In a proselytizing religion, every faithful member is a preacher. It's not a title, it's an act of loyalty to God. The preacher works at your work, but since their faith is the most important topic on their mind, they will not miss a chance to directly or indirectly mention it at any available occasion. (If you live in a western country, surely you know of at least one such faith, perhaps more. And to be clear, I'm not picking on those religions here, but pointing out an experience most westerners can probably relate to, that has strong similarities to the way certain political topics are handled.)
    - undersuit 7y ago
      The definition of preacher places an emphasis on one who does it professionally, words can mean different things though.
- alisonatwork 7y ago
  It is not helpful to change the definition of the word "inclusive". In the context of the workplace - not the church - inclusivity means ensuring all employees have the opportunity to execute to the best of their capacity. In workplaces that are less inclusive, some groups may not be able to do so for various reasons. The OC named LGBTQ+ people as an example, which is fair, as at many workplaces discussion of family or inviting family to social functions is considered a norm and perhaps even a core value. If gay employees face harassment or (in some jurisdictions) termination for discussing their family, that is a failure of inclusion policies. Another example of inclusion is related to accessibility. Is your workplace welcoming of colleagues with disabilities? Can someone with limited mobility attend all corporate events? Are people with speech impediments given time to speak on meetings? This is outside of my personal wheelhouse but I hope the point is clear. There are many ways in which a workplace can improve its inclusivity, and they are all rooted in improving the performance of the employees.
philwelch 7y ago
I think you've somewhat missed the analogy. There's a specific system of beliefs that insists upon bringing up these subjects, framing them in terms of collective privilege and oppression, and silencing anyone who disagrees with that framing. This ideology is ultimately no more "inclusive" than Agile processes are "agile" or the Democratic People's Republic of Korea is "democratic".

ddxxdd 7y ago

Common sense states that it's okay to talk about politics insofar as it relates to workplace productivity.

fwn 7y ago
> Common sense states that it's okay to talk about politics insofar as it relates to workplace productivity. I don't think this is a sensible idea or common sense. The problem with it is that it's fine as long as science shows our ideal workplace environment as more productive or superior. We can say things like "diverse working environments increase productivity" and act backed by those facts. Problem is that it's not really guaranteed that the mechanisms science might suggest in the future actually do support our ideal workplace conditions. Do we then act on those productivity enhancing ideas as well, even in cases in which they are against our ideals? Would we embrace racism or ageism in the name of productivity? To me normalizing (allegedly) neutral arguments based on productivity feels like a dangerous shortcut.

TeMPOraL 7y ago

Being a preacher does not feel like proselytizing. It feels like focusing people's attention on important issues, and working towards an inclusive* environment conductive to open talk about the most important of issues. * - Inclusive environment obviously cannot include the people who hardened their hearts to God, and apostates who turned their back on the Word of God and only speak to poison the minds of good people.

undersuit 7y ago
Why is the preacher at my work? Right? Preacher is a title. Why is the preacher at my work and why are they not just my coworker.
- TeMPOraL 7y ago
  In a proselytizing religion, every faithful member is a preacher. It's not a title, it's an act of loyalty to God. The preacher works at your work, but since their faith is the most important topic on their mind, they will not miss a chance to directly or indirectly mention it at any available occasion. (If you live in a western country, surely you know of at least one such faith, perhaps more. And to be clear, I'm not picking on those religions here, but pointing out an experience most westerners can probably relate to, that has strong similarities to the way certain political topics are handled.)
  - undersuit 7y ago
    The definition of preacher places an emphasis on one who does it professionally, words can mean different things though.
alisonatwork 7y ago
It is not helpful to change the definition of the word "inclusive". In the context of the workplace - not the church - inclusivity means ensuring all employees have the opportunity to execute to the best of their capacity. In workplaces that are less inclusive, some groups may not be able to do so for various reasons. The OC named LGBTQ+ people as an example, which is fair, as at many workplaces discussion of family or inviting family to social functions is considered a norm and perhaps even a core value. If gay employees face harassment or (in some jurisdictions) termination for discussing their family, that is a failure of inclusion policies. Another example of inclusion is related to accessibility. Is your workplace welcoming of colleagues with disabilities? Can someone with limited mobility attend all corporate events? Are people with speech impediments given time to speak on meetings? This is outside of my personal wheelhouse but I hope the point is clear. There are many ways in which a workplace can improve its inclusivity, and they are all rooted in improving the performance of the employees.

philwelch 7y ago

I think you've somewhat missed the analogy. There's a specific system of beliefs that insists upon bringing up these subjects, framing them in terms of collective privilege and oppression, and silencing anyone who disagrees with that framing. This ideology is ultimately no more "inclusive" than Agile processes are "agile" or the Democratic People's Republic of Korea is "democratic".