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Naive question here (I've worked on web apps, but it was using Java technology of the circa 2000 vintage, so my knowledge is quite limited). It seems to me tha

by weichi 16y ago

Naive question here (I've worked on web apps, but it was using Java technology of the circa 2000 vintage, so my knowledge is quite limited). It seems to me that it would be really nice for a developer to be able to treat html/javascript/css similar to the way that developers today treat assembler - a very low-level way to the browser to do exactly what you want, but something that the large majority of programmers don't need to know anything about. So that instead of needing to write html/javascript/css, a developer codes to an api that operates at a higher level (in much the same way that developers of GUI applications code to an api that operates at a high level). Are there web frameworks that insulate developers totally from html/javascript/css? Is this what frameworks like rails/lift/django give you, at least for a limited domain of applications? Is such a framework even possible? Desireable?

brown9-2 16y ago
GWT aims to accomplish this.
bad_user 16y ago
The problem with your logic is that HTML / CSS ... is the most powerful API ever invented for building interfaces. It is so powerful that similar APIs are being brought to mobile phones, e.g. Silverlight / Qt Quick; but for the record, even Silverlight / Flex are a pain compared to plain HTML / CSS (try building customized components sometimes). The only problem with HTML / CSS is the browser inconsistencies involved and I'm obviously biased here, but it's nothing compared to what I experienced while developing / testing with Java Swing or wxWidgets. Cross-platform is a bitch, trying to solve it is nice and all that, but you're going to quickly run into the problem of "leaky abstractions". And for the record, I tried GWT and other web frameworks that tried doing this ... I completely hated every minute of it.
asnyder 16y ago
Yes, one of them is NOLOH (http://www.noloh.com http://www.noloh.com). It's actually an acronym for "Not One Line Of HTML". You can of course use HTML/CSS/JavaScript, but you never have to, and if you do there's extensive handling to allow you to do things you wouldn't be able to normally do in straight up JavaScript, such as handling race conditions, dynamic instantiations, and related situations. Disclaimer: I'm a co-founder of NOLOH
krakensden 16y ago
As long as there are lots of competing, frequently changing browsers, anything that treats HTML/JS/CSS as assembler is going to be a dangerously leaky abstraction.

by weichi 16y ago

brown9-2 16y ago

GWT aims to accomplish this.

bad_user 16y ago

The problem with your logic is that HTML / CSS ... is the most powerful API ever invented for building interfaces. It is so powerful that similar APIs are being brought to mobile phones, e.g. Silverlight / Qt Quick; but for the record, even Silverlight / Flex are a pain compared to plain HTML / CSS (try building customized components sometimes). The only problem with HTML / CSS is the browser inconsistencies involved and I'm obviously biased here, but it's nothing compared to what I experienced while developing / testing with Java Swing or wxWidgets. Cross-platform is a bitch, trying to solve it is nice and all that, but you're going to quickly run into the problem of "leaky abstractions". And for the record, I tried GWT and other web frameworks that tried doing this ... I completely hated every minute of it.

asnyder 16y ago

Yes, one of them is NOLOH (http://www.noloh.com http://www.noloh.com). It's actually an acronym for "Not One Line Of HTML". You can of course use HTML/CSS/JavaScript, but you never have to, and if you do there's extensive handling to allow you to do things you wouldn't be able to normally do in straight up JavaScript, such as handling race conditions, dynamic instantiations, and related situations. Disclaimer: I'm a co-founder of NOLOH

krakensden 16y ago

As long as there are lots of competing, frequently changing browsers, anything that treats HTML/JS/CSS as assembler is going to be a dangerously leaky abstraction.