6 ms·

Understand that the way Buzzfeed covered it obscures the very real fact that there's a huge amount of controversy regarding this specific Satmar Hasidic communi

Understand that the way Buzzfeed covered it obscures the very real fact that there's a huge amount of controversy regarding this specific Satmar Hasidic community. This is not a question of Antisemitism, there have been very real issues directly caused by prominent rabbis within this community. These controversies are known to pretty much anyone in the NY metro area, so it makes sense that the NYTimes (being located in NYC and publishing in the nyarea section) would cover it in such a way. They say this in the Buzzfeed article: >But on an economic level, this commitment translates into a 28% poverty rate among Orthodox Jews in New York, according to the UJA Federation of New York. Many Orthodox Jews find employment at religious schools and rely on welfare to support their large families, which have an average of seven children. This completely ignores that welfare fraud has been a perennial issue in the Lakewood [1] and Brooklyn [2] Hasidic communities. The community knows it can take advantage federal, state, and local programs so they do. The same community has issues with overt employment discrimination [3], and is also known for being one of the more vocal anti-vaxxer communities [4]. I deliberately chose local, Jewish, and official state sources to appeal to your sensitivities. I understand if you aren't from the area and/or have never associated with members of the Hasidic community so I encourage you to review and understand why the NYTimes article was written the way it was. [1] https://www.app.com/story/news/investigations/watchdog/2018/03/27/amnesty-program-results-lakewood-nj-welfare-fraud-arrests-recovery/948466001/ https://www.app.com/story/news/investigations/watchdog/2018/... [2] https://forward.com/news/351162/wealthy-orthodox-couples-charged-in-13m-brooklyn-benefits-scam/ https://forward.com/news/351162/wealthy-orthodox-couples-cha... [3] https://www.dol.gov/newsroom/releases/ofccp/ofccp20170814 https://www.dol.gov/newsroom/releases/ofccp/ofccp20170814 [4] https://forward.com/news/national/422354/hasidic-measles-outbreak-peach-handbook/ https://forward.com/news/national/422354/hasidic-measles-out...

tdfx 7y ago
I think anyone who is not familiar with these particular communities in Lakewood and Brooklyn will see warning flags of anti-semitism in a lot of related comments about them. I would just like to voice some support for the people speaking up about them, because this is not a problem with Jews, or even Orthodox Jews. It is specific to these particular Hasidic communities and the fraud is rampant and expanding.
- joecool1029 7y ago
  Thanks, I believe it's really important to call out and charge the leadership inside these communities. They know full well what is and isn't legal. If you shut down discussion on these sorts of issues, I believe you allow for abuses to happen and rage to grow against the larger community who are often innocent. As others have mentioned, the Hasidic community is an insular community. I have interacted numerous times in business and I've never had an issue professionally. In matters of business they learn how to behave with customers and run things efficiently. It was why, until the discrimination charges were announced, I kept going back to B&H to spend thousands of dollars on gear over the years. When I was a kid I thought of them like Amish, but instead of farming and barn raising they just happened to sell stuff. Unfortunately, just like other groups that rely on propaganda to hide abuses, the good rabbis inside it that act as whistleblowers end up attacked. This sickening NSFW/NSFL article [1] is about a rabbi inside the community that decided to speak out against child abuse. He was rewarded with chemical burns after bleach was tossed in his face. [1] https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/qbe8bp/the-child-rape-assembly-line-0000141-v20n11 https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/qbe8bp/the-child-rape-ass...
  - fortran77 7y ago
    Is it any more "insular" than the Haskell community or the Scheme community?
    - devin 7y ago
      One of these things is not like the other. One of these things just isn’t the same.
  - lonelappde 7y ago
    How are they different from the Amish on this sense? I think you may have let some anti Semitism slip in there. Amish communities have their own problems, like running puppy mills. BTW, why did you say "child abuse" and not "child rape"?
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
ars 7y ago
> this commitment translates into a 28% poverty rate The table used to calculate federal poverty level doesn't scale correctly to high numbers of children. You can make rather a lot of money, yet be considered poor if you have lots of children. Additional children don't cost as much as the federal government thinks.
- klank 7y ago
  Can you back that up with some additional data? According to this: https://www.healthcare.gov/glossary/federal-poverty-level-fpl/ https://www.healthcare.gov/glossary/federal-poverty-level-fp... A family of 8 is under the poverty level if they make less than $43,430. I'd not consider that to be a "rather a lot of money" if raising 8 children is involved.
  - xyzzyz 7y ago
    If you have 5 children already, the additional cost of raising another one is greatly smaller than is the cost of raising the first one. The most likely scenario is that there is already a full time stay at home parent, so they will get additional workload, but won’t incur much additional expenses beyond some more food expenditure, some extra clothing if whatever older siblings have been wearing is too worn out, and extra bed. If the cost of children for you is daycare bills, private school, after school organized activity and college fund, you’re most likely not the kind of person who ends up having 6 children.
  - ars 7y ago
    $43,430 is the number that the federal government considers to be abject poverty. Clearly it's not though. But use your chart to check the 250% level often used as a cut off for services. You can make a 6 figure income and still be considered poor.
    - crooked-v 7y ago
      $43,430 split 8 ways is $5428.75/person/year, before taxes.
amyjess 7y ago
There was also a notorious story of multiple kosher restaurants who had booked a lesbian comedienne only for the local kosher board, run by Hasidic rabbis, to blackmail them by saying that if they don't cancel on her they'll revoke their food's kosher certifications. [0] FWIW, I am Jewish myself, as is the source. [0] https://www.jta.org/quick-reads/brooklyn-eateries-cancel-lesbian-comedians-show-after-rabbis-threaten-to-pull-kosher-certification https://www.jta.org/quick-reads/brooklyn-eateries-cancel-les...
- fortran77 7y ago
  This story is mostly true, but what does it have to do with this group of Amazon sellers?
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
logjammin 7y ago
Not to mention child sexual abuse scandals in these communities in the NYC area. Edit: hadn't seen an earlier poster's comment on this, my bad. Edit 2: it's worth mentioning that the fraud/welfare issue is a massive political hot-button topic in Israel: many Israelis resent having to pay taxes to support hasidim who in many cases don't contribute to society: they don't serve in the army, they don't work, they don't go to university, but they have lots of children and get welfare for them and themselves. Current electoral brouhaha over there is at least partly driven by related issues and the overall religious-secular divide. It's fascinating reading!
- joelbluminator 7y ago
  In Israel the orthodox are 12% and growing rapidly, in 30 years they will constitute about 30% of Israeli Jews. In the u.s they are tiny and insignificant. Like the Amish.
  - lonelappde 7y ago
    Both of you are conflating Hasidic with Orthodox.
tacocataco 7y ago
I think that says more about the complexity of getting and utilizing welfare services being used as a way to keep people who qualify away from the benefits they deserve.
pmiller2 7y ago
One thing you left out is that despite their insularity, the Hasidim vote, in large numbers, and largely the way their rabbis instruct them to. Combine this with the fact that they have very large families, and you can see how they can quickly become very politically powerful.
trianglem 7y ago
I recently feel like I want people to be left alone. Everyone always seems to be intruding into communities that don't want to be intruded on. I disagree with this.
- xapata 7y ago
  Even if they're committing crimes? What if the victims want your help?

tdfx 7y ago

I think anyone who is not familiar with these particular communities in Lakewood and Brooklyn will see warning flags of anti-semitism in a lot of related comments about them. I would just like to voice some support for the people speaking up about them, because this is not a problem with Jews, or even Orthodox Jews. It is specific to these particular Hasidic communities and the fraud is rampant and expanding.

joecool1029 7y ago
Thanks, I believe it's really important to call out and charge the leadership inside these communities. They know full well what is and isn't legal. If you shut down discussion on these sorts of issues, I believe you allow for abuses to happen and rage to grow against the larger community who are often innocent. As others have mentioned, the Hasidic community is an insular community. I have interacted numerous times in business and I've never had an issue professionally. In matters of business they learn how to behave with customers and run things efficiently. It was why, until the discrimination charges were announced, I kept going back to B&H to spend thousands of dollars on gear over the years. When I was a kid I thought of them like Amish, but instead of farming and barn raising they just happened to sell stuff. Unfortunately, just like other groups that rely on propaganda to hide abuses, the good rabbis inside it that act as whistleblowers end up attacked. This sickening NSFW/NSFL article [1] is about a rabbi inside the community that decided to speak out against child abuse. He was rewarded with chemical burns after bleach was tossed in his face. [1] https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/qbe8bp/the-child-rape-assembly-line-0000141-v20n11 https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/qbe8bp/the-child-rape-ass...
- fortran77 7y ago
  Is it any more "insular" than the Haskell community or the Scheme community?
  - devin 7y ago
    One of these things is not like the other. One of these things just isn’t the same.
- lonelappde 7y ago
  How are they different from the Amish on this sense? I think you may have let some anti Semitism slip in there. Amish communities have their own problems, like running puppy mills. BTW, why did you say "child abuse" and not "child rape"?
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]

ars 7y ago

> this commitment translates into a 28% poverty rate The table used to calculate federal poverty level doesn't scale correctly to high numbers of children. You can make rather a lot of money, yet be considered poor if you have lots of children. Additional children don't cost as much as the federal government thinks.

klank 7y ago
Can you back that up with some additional data? According to this: https://www.healthcare.gov/glossary/federal-poverty-level-fpl/ https://www.healthcare.gov/glossary/federal-poverty-level-fp... A family of 8 is under the poverty level if they make less than $43,430. I'd not consider that to be a "rather a lot of money" if raising 8 children is involved.
- xyzzyz 7y ago
  If you have 5 children already, the additional cost of raising another one is greatly smaller than is the cost of raising the first one. The most likely scenario is that there is already a full time stay at home parent, so they will get additional workload, but won’t incur much additional expenses beyond some more food expenditure, some extra clothing if whatever older siblings have been wearing is too worn out, and extra bed. If the cost of children for you is daycare bills, private school, after school organized activity and college fund, you’re most likely not the kind of person who ends up having 6 children.
- ars 7y ago
  $43,430 is the number that the federal government considers to be abject poverty. Clearly it's not though. But use your chart to check the 250% level often used as a cut off for services. You can make a 6 figure income and still be considered poor.
  - crooked-v 7y ago
    $43,430 split 8 ways is $5428.75/person/year, before taxes.

amyjess 7y ago

There was also a notorious story of multiple kosher restaurants who had booked a lesbian comedienne only for the local kosher board, run by Hasidic rabbis, to blackmail them by saying that if they don't cancel on her they'll revoke their food's kosher certifications. [0] FWIW, I am Jewish myself, as is the source. [0] https://www.jta.org/quick-reads/brooklyn-eateries-cancel-lesbian-comedians-show-after-rabbis-threaten-to-pull-kosher-certification https://www.jta.org/quick-reads/brooklyn-eateries-cancel-les...

fortran77 7y ago
This story is mostly true, but what does it have to do with this group of Amazon sellers?

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

logjammin 7y ago

Not to mention child sexual abuse scandals in these communities in the NYC area. Edit: hadn't seen an earlier poster's comment on this, my bad. Edit 2: it's worth mentioning that the fraud/welfare issue is a massive political hot-button topic in Israel: many Israelis resent having to pay taxes to support hasidim who in many cases don't contribute to society: they don't serve in the army, they don't work, they don't go to university, but they have lots of children and get welfare for them and themselves. Current electoral brouhaha over there is at least partly driven by related issues and the overall religious-secular divide. It's fascinating reading!

joelbluminator 7y ago
In Israel the orthodox are 12% and growing rapidly, in 30 years they will constitute about 30% of Israeli Jews. In the u.s they are tiny and insignificant. Like the Amish.
- lonelappde 7y ago
  Both of you are conflating Hasidic with Orthodox.

tacocataco 7y ago

I think that says more about the complexity of getting and utilizing welfare services being used as a way to keep people who qualify away from the benefits they deserve.

pmiller2 7y ago

One thing you left out is that despite their insularity, the Hasidim vote, in large numbers, and largely the way their rabbis instruct them to. Combine this with the fact that they have very large families, and you can see how they can quickly become very politically powerful.

trianglem 7y ago

I recently feel like I want people to be left alone. Everyone always seems to be intruding into communities that don't want to be intruded on. I disagree with this.

xapata 7y ago
Even if they're committing crimes? What if the victims want your help?