4 ms·

> I predict that in 50-100 years we'll look back on the age of the automobile as one of the biggest mistakes in urban planning. I think that's a very hyperboli

> I predict that in 50-100 years we'll look back on the age of the automobile as one of the biggest mistakes in urban planning. I think that's a very hyperbolic prediction. I think elevating the automobile to the detriment of other forms of transportation will be viewed as a mistake, but the automobile itself is no more a mistake than the horse and carriage were. > My dream is that one day most streets in Manhattan will be closed to car traffic and replaced with green space full of trees, flowers, children playing, and usable public space. When was this ever true in Manhattan, and why do you think it would become true just by getting rid of cars? Crowded city streets predate cars by centuries.

mc32 7y ago
Agreed. It was a necessary step to the next stage. We could say the industrial revolution was a great disaster as if disrupted how people worked, their relationship to labor, capital, etc., but it also enabled us to get where we are today.
asveikau 7y ago
> When was this ever true in Manhattan, Probably not what they are going for, but uptown was relatively undeveloped until surprisingly recently in historical terms. Also there are lots of famous photos of kids playing on Manhattan streets from circa the '30s and earlier.
Robotbeat 7y ago
Put all the vehicles (of whatever type) underground.
- isostatic 7y ago
  Underground isn't an infinite space. Power, Sewers, basements, vaults, foundations, and existing tunnels. In London, building a new tunnel for crossrail involved threading a TBM through a gap with 80cm clearance (that's less than 2 cubits). The deeper you go, the wider the problems above, the more existing infrastrucutre is effected, not to mention the issues of how to return to the surface. Build decking over all the existing surface streets, only allow electric vehicles on the (current) underground streets, don't allow anything larger than a pushbike on the top.
  - jakecopp 7y ago
    Are there any examples of this "decking" model that have worked? What about all the businesses that occupied the old ground floor? This multi layered fantasy seems to have been around since GM's world fair exhibit in 1939 at least [1], but I haven't seen it work. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Futurama_(New_York_World%27s_Fair) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Futurama_(New_York_World%27s_F...
    - isostatic 7y ago
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seattle_Underground https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seattle_Underground
adjkant 7y ago
> When was this ever true in Manhattan It never was, but the car problem always existed because roads needing to be clear for horses caused the same prohibitive issues of using streets for pedestrians. > why do you think it would become true just by getting rid of cars? It wouldn't be just getting rid of cars, its what you do with the space once you get rid of them. Added greenery, protected bike lanes, a lane or two for trains/buses, and you get a ton more pedestrian room. Suddenly people could want to be on the streets of midtown manhattan maybe, save tourist spots.
- isostatic 7y ago
  And deliveries, not just your amazon prime 2 hour service, but for shops to restock, and building sites to handle tons of equipment, cement, rubble, etc?
  - jdnenej 7y ago
    They can go through the bus lane. Usually when you design people centric streets you still leave a clearing big enough for vehicles to pass through, it's just they have to go very slow or have siren to alert everyone to move out of the way for an emergency.
  - ygra 7y ago
    Pedestrian areas in the city center here usually get delivery trucks in the early morning and after ~8:00 or so no cars are allowed in that zone. Seems to work well. Construction sites are an exception and while inconvenient I doubt people insist on bringing construction equipment by wheelbarrow from a km away.
  - srg0 7y ago
    As it works in Europe, businesses and residents can get a (usually paid) permit to enter such areas, or there're hours when traffic is permitted. The same for building sites, they get an approval for a temporary modification of the traffic regulations. Most minor deliveries (food, post) are done using lightweight transport (small trucks, scooters, bicycles, kick scooters, on foot). Usually there are parkings on the borders of the area, so it's not a problem for who arrives from afar. It's actually very nice experience.
0x14c1de72 7y ago
There is a difference though, centuries before cars they didn't have trains/metros/drones/airplanes so the streets were the ONLY venue for transportation/logistics, thus necessary. That said I don't believe a city without cars will work unless it's planned for that before building. Basically all everyday logistics would have to be underground. Obviously it would only work for very densely populated areas. I'd like to see something like that though. Small densely populated areas connected by trains/metros and surrounded by forests.

mc32 7y ago

Agreed. It was a necessary step to the next stage. We could say the industrial revolution was a great disaster as if disrupted how people worked, their relationship to labor, capital, etc., but it also enabled us to get where we are today.

asveikau 7y ago

> When was this ever true in Manhattan, Probably not what they are going for, but uptown was relatively undeveloped until surprisingly recently in historical terms. Also there are lots of famous photos of kids playing on Manhattan streets from circa the '30s and earlier.

Robotbeat 7y ago

Put all the vehicles (of whatever type) underground.

isostatic 7y ago
Underground isn't an infinite space. Power, Sewers, basements, vaults, foundations, and existing tunnels. In London, building a new tunnel for crossrail involved threading a TBM through a gap with 80cm clearance (that's less than 2 cubits). The deeper you go, the wider the problems above, the more existing infrastrucutre is effected, not to mention the issues of how to return to the surface. Build decking over all the existing surface streets, only allow electric vehicles on the (current) underground streets, don't allow anything larger than a pushbike on the top.
- jakecopp 7y ago
  Are there any examples of this "decking" model that have worked? What about all the businesses that occupied the old ground floor? This multi layered fantasy seems to have been around since GM's world fair exhibit in 1939 at least [1], but I haven't seen it work. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Futurama_(New_York_World%27s_Fair) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Futurama_(New_York_World%27s_F...
  - isostatic 7y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seattle_Underground https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seattle_Underground

adjkant 7y ago

> When was this ever true in Manhattan It never was, but the car problem always existed because roads needing to be clear for horses caused the same prohibitive issues of using streets for pedestrians. > why do you think it would become true just by getting rid of cars? It wouldn't be just getting rid of cars, its what you do with the space once you get rid of them. Added greenery, protected bike lanes, a lane or two for trains/buses, and you get a ton more pedestrian room. Suddenly people could want to be on the streets of midtown manhattan maybe, save tourist spots.

isostatic 7y ago
And deliveries, not just your amazon prime 2 hour service, but for shops to restock, and building sites to handle tons of equipment, cement, rubble, etc?
- jdnenej 7y ago
  They can go through the bus lane. Usually when you design people centric streets you still leave a clearing big enough for vehicles to pass through, it's just they have to go very slow or have siren to alert everyone to move out of the way for an emergency.
- ygra 7y ago
  Pedestrian areas in the city center here usually get delivery trucks in the early morning and after ~8:00 or so no cars are allowed in that zone. Seems to work well. Construction sites are an exception and while inconvenient I doubt people insist on bringing construction equipment by wheelbarrow from a km away.
- srg0 7y ago
  As it works in Europe, businesses and residents can get a (usually paid) permit to enter such areas, or there're hours when traffic is permitted. The same for building sites, they get an approval for a temporary modification of the traffic regulations. Most minor deliveries (food, post) are done using lightweight transport (small trucks, scooters, bicycles, kick scooters, on foot). Usually there are parkings on the borders of the area, so it's not a problem for who arrives from afar. It's actually very nice experience.

0x14c1de72 7y ago

There is a difference though, centuries before cars they didn't have trains/metros/drones/airplanes so the streets were the ONLY venue for transportation/logistics, thus necessary. That said I don't believe a city without cars will work unless it's planned for that before building. Basically all everyday logistics would have to be underground. Obviously it would only work for very densely populated areas. I'd like to see something like that though. Small densely populated areas connected by trains/metros and surrounded by forests.