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It is a nice piece of technology. It is a 60Ghz millimeter-wave radar. It is a privacy nightmare. It is already shipped. Radar uses electromagnetic waves (like

It is a nice piece of technology. It is a 60Ghz millimeter-wave radar. It is a privacy nightmare. It is already shipped. Radar uses electromagnetic waves (like Wifi but higher frequency) so it can go through walls, and even typical range for gesture recognition is less than meter, It probably can go at least 10 times as far by boosting the gain of the amplifier, it is not constrained like a theremin would be because it is already working in the far field region of the antenna. Because it work at such high frequency (but not so high that it can still go through walls), it has many very small antennas arrays, and sense sub millimeter movements even from far away. It also has beam-forming capabilities, meaning it can focus the direction in which to sense. Because it is radar, things which moves are of interests and are filtered easily from the background. Typically this piece of technology already can or will soon be able to : sense how many humans are around it, where they are, how fast they breath, how fast the heart is pulsating, who they are by computing some heart-base ID. It is low-power and always-on, 360° with focus-able attention. It is cheap because it can be made on a chip. (Edit: fixing typos)

JamyDev 7y ago
Not that I don't believe you, but I would like to see some sources on some of these claims you're making...
- BinaryIdiot 7y ago
  I mean, in theory you setup 3 WiFi base stations and you can use WiFi in roughly the same way. No where near as accurate, of course, but you can easily figure out which areas of the house a person is in. I don't see why this wouldn't be an even better way to do the same thing.
  - SketchySeaBeast 7y ago
    Assuming all this tech is actively and deliberately spying on you, wouldn't your phone in your pocket provide the same information?
- GistNoesis 7y ago
  I read the referenced papers : https://atap.google.com/soli/technology/ https://atap.google.com/soli/technology/ About 60Ghz technology : https://www.embedded.com/why-60ghz-mmwave-is-moving-into-the-mainstream/ https://www.embedded.com/why-60ghz-mmwave-is-moving-into-the... I've played with some 6Ghz 2$ microwave radar sensor and Software Defined Radios though I have not yet used 60Ghz. Electromagnetic Waves are kind of magic when used in not conventional ways. I remember seeing the 2015 disney EM-sense video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fpKDNle6ia4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fpKDNle6ia4 which is a non-radar way to listen to the environment.
arghwhat 7y ago
> 60Ghz millimiter-wave radar > so it can go through walls 60 GHz RF doesn't really pass through anything, which is the entire reason that the frequency is used for radar. A radar needs powerful reflections to detect things. Penetration impedes its operation, and would be akin to a camera that is out of focus. I'm also unsure if the resolution of this chip is noteworthy.
- mlyle 7y ago
  Yup, the range claims are silly, too. Radar has an inverse fourth power with distance, so to go 10x as far by adding power, you need 10000x as much power, which is quite a challenge at 60GHz.
  - GistNoesis 7y ago
    You are right that Radar follows an inverse 4th power with distance (inverse 2th power for the light to go to the reflected object then 2th power for the reflected wave to go back to your antenna). For 3$ https://fr.aliexpress.com/item/32786483344.html https://fr.aliexpress.com/item/32786483344.html a 6Ghz radar that goes 12meters using 30mA, so my range claims are not that silly. When there is no obstacle 6Ghz or 60Ghz doesn't matter.
    - mlyle 7y ago
      > When there is no obstacle 6Ghz or 60Ghz doesn't matter. Power amplifier efficiency for 6GHz and 60GHz is not the same-- not even close. > For 3$ https://fr.aliexpress.com/item/32786483344.html https://fr.aliexpress.com/item/32786483344.html a 6Ghz radar that goes 12meters using 30mA, so my range claims are not that silly. This is a deflection and ridiculous. We're talking about spotting e.g. gestures. It falls apart with distance because of both angular resolution and inverse-fourth power. I've been involved in the design of mmwave radars. If it was easy to spot and precisely track small objects at 10m, we'd be doing it...
      - GistNoesis 7y ago
eutropia 7y ago
> In the case of Pixel 4, the model runs on device, never sends sensor data to Google servers, and helps it interpret the motion to Quick Gestures. From the "Technology" page linked at the top. Personally, I don't see how it is meaningfully any worse for privacy than the always on microphone in the google assistant. And I look forward to what it will enable for VR and AR tech!
- schmichael 7y ago
  "Never sending raw sensor data to Google" and "Never sending inferences made from sensor data to Google" are massively different claims. "Never sending raw sensor data to Google" is an efficiency claim that means little with regard to protecting privacy.
  - drusepth 7y ago
    It's pretty trivial* to sniff traffic and find out what data is actually being sent to Google once people have devices in their hands, no? It doesn't seem like the kind of thing a company would try to underhandedly sneak in after explicitly saying the sensor runs on-device and "never sends sensor data to Google servers". * Trivial in the sense of someone who actually knows what they're doing -- of which we only really need one person in order to "leak" what's actually happening.
    - victoro0 7y ago
      Are you serious? Because I'm pretty sure there is some random "user experience checkbox" checked by default that somehow means some of the data is sent to Google so they can "improve their products and services" and what not, but don't worry because it is probably "anonymized" and will only be seen by "humans" or "AIs" depending on what feels less bad for the general public once discovered.
    - Arelius 7y ago
      No, it's not. Between encryption and a high background communication noise of the cellphone already it's hard to discern exactly what is being sent. I don't think anyone thinks that they are, or will be sending all the sensor data to the servers. But they don't need to, they only need to send back what is determined due to that data. Specifically consider what is most likely for an ad company, a few differentiated markers to help with targeting, that can easily be packed into a few bits. And can be trivially stored to be sent later on with some other packet that has a valid reason to be sent. (Appstore update check, anyone?) Accounting for every bit that leaves the phone sounds like a nigh impossible task. I'm not saying this is definitely happening, but I don't think it's practical to rule out the possibility, with any amount of packet sniffing.
cmroanirgo 7y ago
It seems like they need some humans to tweak their algos, by playing a game no less: >* Headed South is an experience that introduces Pixel’s new touchless interface to users in a playful and engaging way. Through your journey, learn, practice and master the use of Motion Sense gestures to gather a flock of birds and fly South to escape the storm.
tibbon 7y ago
Time to make a theremin app!
- markandrewj 7y ago
  Somewhat ironically, in context of the thread about privacy, the inventor of the theremin is also known for creating this soviet listening device. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Thing_(listening_device) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Thing_(listening_device)
r1ch 7y ago
Given that it's always-on, I wonder how much it interferes with 802.11ad (WiGig) which also uses 60 GHz.
cma 7y ago
Are you sure? 60Ghz is used for low latency video streaming and doesn't penetrate anything.
pstuart 7y ago
And once you add in MicroExpression comprehension (https://www.paulekman.com/resources/micro-expressions/ https://www.paulekman.com/resources/micro-expressions/), and voice audio analysis and you've got a real working, portable lie detector. That will be, um, interesting.
gniv 7y ago
I should start a business. Faraday Sleeves. ... and of course it exists. Only $90: https://silent-pocket.com/products/faraday-cage-phone-sleeve https://silent-pocket.com/products/faraday-cage-phone-sleeve

JamyDev 7y ago

Not that I don't believe you, but I would like to see some sources on some of these claims you're making...

BinaryIdiot 7y ago
I mean, in theory you setup 3 WiFi base stations and you can use WiFi in roughly the same way. No where near as accurate, of course, but you can easily figure out which areas of the house a person is in. I don't see why this wouldn't be an even better way to do the same thing.
- SketchySeaBeast 7y ago
  Assuming all this tech is actively and deliberately spying on you, wouldn't your phone in your pocket provide the same information?
GistNoesis 7y ago
I read the referenced papers : https://atap.google.com/soli/technology/ https://atap.google.com/soli/technology/ About 60Ghz technology : https://www.embedded.com/why-60ghz-mmwave-is-moving-into-the-mainstream/ https://www.embedded.com/why-60ghz-mmwave-is-moving-into-the... I've played with some 6Ghz 2$ microwave radar sensor and Software Defined Radios though I have not yet used 60Ghz. Electromagnetic Waves are kind of magic when used in not conventional ways. I remember seeing the 2015 disney EM-sense video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fpKDNle6ia4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fpKDNle6ia4 which is a non-radar way to listen to the environment.

arghwhat 7y ago

> 60Ghz millimiter-wave radar > so it can go through walls 60 GHz RF doesn't really pass through anything, which is the entire reason that the frequency is used for radar. A radar needs powerful reflections to detect things. Penetration impedes its operation, and would be akin to a camera that is out of focus. I'm also unsure if the resolution of this chip is noteworthy.

mlyle 7y ago
Yup, the range claims are silly, too. Radar has an inverse fourth power with distance, so to go 10x as far by adding power, you need 10000x as much power, which is quite a challenge at 60GHz.
- GistNoesis 7y ago
  You are right that Radar follows an inverse 4th power with distance (inverse 2th power for the light to go to the reflected object then 2th power for the reflected wave to go back to your antenna). For 3$ https://fr.aliexpress.com/item/32786483344.html https://fr.aliexpress.com/item/32786483344.html a 6Ghz radar that goes 12meters using 30mA, so my range claims are not that silly. When there is no obstacle 6Ghz or 60Ghz doesn't matter.
  - mlyle 7y ago
    > When there is no obstacle 6Ghz or 60Ghz doesn't matter. Power amplifier efficiency for 6GHz and 60GHz is not the same-- not even close. > For 3$ https://fr.aliexpress.com/item/32786483344.html https://fr.aliexpress.com/item/32786483344.html a 6Ghz radar that goes 12meters using 30mA, so my range claims are not that silly. This is a deflection and ridiculous. We're talking about spotting e.g. gestures. It falls apart with distance because of both angular resolution and inverse-fourth power. I've been involved in the design of mmwave radars. If it was easy to spot and precisely track small objects at 10m, we'd be doing it...
    - GistNoesis 7y ago

eutropia 7y ago

> In the case of Pixel 4, the model runs on device, never sends sensor data to Google servers, and helps it interpret the motion to Quick Gestures. From the "Technology" page linked at the top. Personally, I don't see how it is meaningfully any worse for privacy than the always on microphone in the google assistant. And I look forward to what it will enable for VR and AR tech!

schmichael 7y ago
"Never sending raw sensor data to Google" and "Never sending inferences made from sensor data to Google" are massively different claims. "Never sending raw sensor data to Google" is an efficiency claim that means little with regard to protecting privacy.
- drusepth 7y ago
  It's pretty trivial* to sniff traffic and find out what data is actually being sent to Google once people have devices in their hands, no? It doesn't seem like the kind of thing a company would try to underhandedly sneak in after explicitly saying the sensor runs on-device and "never sends sensor data to Google servers". * Trivial in the sense of someone who actually knows what they're doing -- of which we only really need one person in order to "leak" what's actually happening.
  - victoro0 7y ago
    Are you serious? Because I'm pretty sure there is some random "user experience checkbox" checked by default that somehow means some of the data is sent to Google so they can "improve their products and services" and what not, but don't worry because it is probably "anonymized" and will only be seen by "humans" or "AIs" depending on what feels less bad for the general public once discovered.
  - Arelius 7y ago
    No, it's not. Between encryption and a high background communication noise of the cellphone already it's hard to discern exactly what is being sent. I don't think anyone thinks that they are, or will be sending all the sensor data to the servers. But they don't need to, they only need to send back what is determined due to that data. Specifically consider what is most likely for an ad company, a few differentiated markers to help with targeting, that can easily be packed into a few bits. And can be trivially stored to be sent later on with some other packet that has a valid reason to be sent. (Appstore update check, anyone?) Accounting for every bit that leaves the phone sounds like a nigh impossible task. I'm not saying this is definitely happening, but I don't think it's practical to rule out the possibility, with any amount of packet sniffing.

cmroanirgo 7y ago

It seems like they need some humans to tweak their algos, by playing a game no less: >* Headed South is an experience that introduces Pixel’s new touchless interface to users in a playful and engaging way. Through your journey, learn, practice and master the use of Motion Sense gestures to gather a flock of birds and fly South to escape the storm.

tibbon 7y ago

Time to make a theremin app!

markandrewj 7y ago
Somewhat ironically, in context of the thread about privacy, the inventor of the theremin is also known for creating this soviet listening device. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Thing_(listening_device) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Thing_(listening_device)

r1ch 7y ago

Given that it's always-on, I wonder how much it interferes with 802.11ad (WiGig) which also uses 60 GHz.

cma 7y ago

Are you sure? 60Ghz is used for low latency video streaming and doesn't penetrate anything.

pstuart 7y ago

And once you add in MicroExpression comprehension (https://www.paulekman.com/resources/micro-expressions/ https://www.paulekman.com/resources/micro-expressions/), and voice audio analysis and you've got a real working, portable lie detector. That will be, um, interesting.

gniv 7y ago

I should start a business. Faraday Sleeves. ... and of course it exists. Only $90: https://silent-pocket.com/products/faraday-cage-phone-sleeve https://silent-pocket.com/products/faraday-cage-phone-sleeve