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If anyone is interested in this type of thing I would recommend reading ‘Seeing Like a State’ by James C. Scott. It is one of those books that makes a point so

by stfwn 7y ago

If anyone is interested in this type of thing I would recommend reading ‘Seeing Like a State’ by James C. Scott. It is one of those books that makes a point so definitively that many articles on the topic could just be appended as examples. From Wikipedia: > The book catalogues schemes which states impose upon populaces that are convenient for the state since they make societies "legible", but are not necessarily good for the people. For example, census data, standardized weights and measures, and uniform languages make it easier to tax and control the population.

perfunctory 7y ago
What's wrong with "standardized weights and measures"?
- pavel_lishin 7y ago
  And with taking a census for that matter?
- savanaly 7y ago
  If you don't feel like reading the actual book, this book review [0] does an excellent job of summarizing. [0] https://slatestarcodex.com/2017/03/16/book-review-seeing-like-a-state/ https://slatestarcodex.com/2017/03/16/book-review-seeing-lik...
- thaumasiotes 7y ago
  Pre-Industrial Societies: Anatomy of the Pre-Modern World ( https://www.amazon.com/dp/1780747411/ https://www.amazon.com/dp/1780747411/ ) makes the case that standardized weights and measures do indeed make things easier for the state, but that in this case the state is on the side of the peasants against the nobility who would like to enserf them. History supports this view in some obvious ways -- European peasant revolutions included demands for standardized weights and measures as a counter to abuse of nonstandard measures by local lords.
SketchySeaBeast 7y ago
I'm not sure how decreased dereliction, increased greenspaces, and strengthening the local community are tools of government control. It kind of feels like the same goals an anarchist commune would have.
volkl48 7y ago
It's pretty easy to point to the obvious societal and economic benefits to the population of all of those examples. Does the book explain why it believes said benefits are outweighed by their use in allowing the government to actually enforce taxes and laws?
- pjc50 7y ago
  The map is not the territory. The argument is not that they are without benefit, but that there are downsides to people who don't fit the statistical model. For censuses, an example might be the list of religion, race or gender checkboxes. If your identity doesn't correspond to a checkbox, it appears not to exist.

by stfwn 7y ago

perfunctory 7y ago

What's wrong with "standardized weights and measures"?

pavel_lishin 7y ago
And with taking a census for that matter?
savanaly 7y ago
If you don't feel like reading the actual book, this book review [0] does an excellent job of summarizing. [0] https://slatestarcodex.com/2017/03/16/book-review-seeing-like-a-state/ https://slatestarcodex.com/2017/03/16/book-review-seeing-lik...
thaumasiotes 7y ago
Pre-Industrial Societies: Anatomy of the Pre-Modern World ( https://www.amazon.com/dp/1780747411/ https://www.amazon.com/dp/1780747411/ ) makes the case that standardized weights and measures do indeed make things easier for the state, but that in this case the state is on the side of the peasants against the nobility who would like to enserf them. History supports this view in some obvious ways -- European peasant revolutions included demands for standardized weights and measures as a counter to abuse of nonstandard measures by local lords.

SketchySeaBeast 7y ago

I'm not sure how decreased dereliction, increased greenspaces, and strengthening the local community are tools of government control. It kind of feels like the same goals an anarchist commune would have.

volkl48 7y ago

It's pretty easy to point to the obvious societal and economic benefits to the population of all of those examples. Does the book explain why it believes said benefits are outweighed by their use in allowing the government to actually enforce taxes and laws?

pjc50 7y ago
The map is not the territory. The argument is not that they are without benefit, but that there are downsides to people who don't fit the statistical model. For censuses, an example might be the list of religion, race or gender checkboxes. If your identity doesn't correspond to a checkbox, it appears not to exist.