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I edited and added Macbook trackpad example before your response. I agree when its done right, it works but those are rare examples. Vast majority of products d

I edited and added Macbook trackpad example before your response. I agree when its done right, it works but those are rare examples. Vast majority of products do not go to the lengths that Apple does. > Even space, versatility, & cost aside, there are definitely tasks that a touch screen does better. Using a map with a touch screen is incredibly intuitive compared to a mouse. (I cannot imagine using sliders or other "physical" interfaces) Have you used a space mouse? I think it is vastly superior to moving hands, pinching and getting tired after about 3 mins. CAD work requires moving things around for hours on . Pinching, zooming and moving things around with hands is completely insane to a CAD engineer - take a look at this: https://www.3dconnexion.com/products/spacemouse.html https://www.3dconnexion.com/products/spacemouse.html I've been using a space mouse since 2005 for mechanical CAD. I wish I can explain what it is like to use to others because you can't. It is as if its an extension of my senses, and it feels so incredibly natural.

jacobolus 7y ago
The space mouse is like a joystick or a thinkpad “trackpoint”. It doesn’t move around or measure movements of the body, but just uses force on it to control velocity. This is much less intuitive/effective than a direct movement. A mouse beats a trackpoint hands down for speed and precision in any context where mouse-user performance is important per se (the trackpoint’s advantage is that it is already directly under the fingers while typing, so does not require moving the hands to a separate device and reduces switching time between mousing and typing). For just inputting rotation, the best ever tried is a trackball which senses a full 3 dimensions of rotation (most trackballs only sense 2 dimensions, with rotations in the third dimension ignored). These have only ever been made as research prototypes, but they were dramatically faster and more precise for people to use than a space mouse. 3D movement is hard to build physical devices to measure; for that maybe the space mouse is the best we can do.
- spectramax 7y ago
  I totally disagree based on experience with using a CAD software for many years. A space mouse isn’t a trackpoint. It is a 6 degrees of freedom device that feels insanely natural once you get used to it. There is a reason why professionals working on 3D software use a Space Mouse - animation studios to Boeing. Everyone got one when you start a new job. You should try one if an opportunity comes up. Honestly, it will change your mind forever about what it does. And it’s nothing like a trackpoint, trackball or a joystick. I wish I could show it in person to you and blow all previous expectations. Edit: a couple of things: * Trackpoint: 2 axis device * Trackball: 2 axis device * Joystick: Usually 2 rotational axes, but you can get 3 axes (twist about Z-axis) * Space Mouse: 6 axis device You don't need to move things physically... try flipping through pages on iPad for 1 hour straight vs. using PageUp and PageDown keys on a keyboard. See it for yourself which one is more tiring.
  - jacobolus 7y ago
    > I totally disagree Nothing you wrote is in disagreement with anything I wrote, except for the inaccurate assumptions about my past experience and your misunderstanding the main thrust of my comment. I have used several different space mice, and also taken a couple of them completely apart. I understand reasonably well how they work. They have a fixed internal part which is attached to the (slightly movable) outside shell by several springs, with little position sensors used to measure a proxy for the force and torque exerted on their outside shell. I believe the early versions used strain gauges instead of position sensors, but the result was more or less the same. > A space mouse isn’t a trackpoint. You completely missed my point. The part that is similar between a space space mouse and a trackpoint or joystick is that all of these essentially measure force on them, with that input converted by software to velocity (or angular velocity). If you let go they move back to a neutral position instead of staying where you put them. They do not measure the direct displacement or rotation of some physical component or body part. This is different than the input of a mouse or a touchscreen or a knob or a slider or a trackball or a scroll wheel or a dial or a stylus, but similar to the input of an analog trigger or pedal or steering wheel. > Trackball: 2 axis device A trackball with the appropriate sensor(s) can be a 3-axis input device (i.e. if the sensor fully characterizes the rotation). There have been several such devices made as research prototypes in various universities and corporate labs, and empirically they are much more efficient to use than space mouse for inputting rotations. However, they have never (as far as I know) been commercially produced. This is a shame, because I would love to have one, and building hardware for myself is a lot more effort than buying something off the shelf. > try flipping through pages on iPad for 1 hour straight vs. using PageUp and PageDown keys on a keyboard. See it for yourself which one is more tiring. This is a non sequitur. But to answer you, I am perfectly happy to flip physical pages on a book for 5 hours straight, without my fingers ever getting tired.
    - spectramax 7y ago
      > You completely missed my point. The part that is similar between a space space mouse and a trackpoint or joystick is that all of these essentially measure force on them, with that input converted by software to velocity (or angular velocity). If you let go they move back to a neutral position instead of staying where you put them. They do not measure the direct displacement or rotation of some physical component or body part. This is different than the input of a mouse or a touchscreen or a knob or a slider or a trackball or a scroll wheel or a dial or a stylus, but similar to the input of an analog trigger or pedal or steering wheel. Yep, I did. I am sorry. I personally cannot stand using a trackpoint for precisely the same reasons as you're describing. Conversely, I tremendously enjoy using a space mouse and you would have to snatch it from my dead cold hands! It is so good, I don't know how to explain. > This is a non sequitur. But to answer you, I am perfectly happy to flip physical pages on a book for 5 hours straight, without my fingers ever getting tired. As compared to PageUp/PageDown? Which one do you think would make you less tired?

jacobolus 7y ago

The space mouse is like a joystick or a thinkpad “trackpoint”. It doesn’t move around or measure movements of the body, but just uses force on it to control velocity. This is much less intuitive/effective than a direct movement. A mouse beats a trackpoint hands down for speed and precision in any context where mouse-user performance is important per se (the trackpoint’s advantage is that it is already directly under the fingers while typing, so does not require moving the hands to a separate device and reduces switching time between mousing and typing). For just inputting rotation, the best ever tried is a trackball which senses a full 3 dimensions of rotation (most trackballs only sense 2 dimensions, with rotations in the third dimension ignored). These have only ever been made as research prototypes, but they were dramatically faster and more precise for people to use than a space mouse. 3D movement is hard to build physical devices to measure; for that maybe the space mouse is the best we can do.

spectramax 7y ago
I totally disagree based on experience with using a CAD software for many years. A space mouse isn’t a trackpoint. It is a 6 degrees of freedom device that feels insanely natural once you get used to it. There is a reason why professionals working on 3D software use a Space Mouse - animation studios to Boeing. Everyone got one when you start a new job. You should try one if an opportunity comes up. Honestly, it will change your mind forever about what it does. And it’s nothing like a trackpoint, trackball or a joystick. I wish I could show it in person to you and blow all previous expectations. Edit: a couple of things: * Trackpoint: 2 axis device * Trackball: 2 axis device * Joystick: Usually 2 rotational axes, but you can get 3 axes (twist about Z-axis) * Space Mouse: 6 axis device You don't need to move things physically... try flipping through pages on iPad for 1 hour straight vs. using PageUp and PageDown keys on a keyboard. See it for yourself which one is more tiring.
- jacobolus 7y ago
  > I totally disagree Nothing you wrote is in disagreement with anything I wrote, except for the inaccurate assumptions about my past experience and your misunderstanding the main thrust of my comment. I have used several different space mice, and also taken a couple of them completely apart. I understand reasonably well how they work. They have a fixed internal part which is attached to the (slightly movable) outside shell by several springs, with little position sensors used to measure a proxy for the force and torque exerted on their outside shell. I believe the early versions used strain gauges instead of position sensors, but the result was more or less the same. > A space mouse isn’t a trackpoint. You completely missed my point. The part that is similar between a space space mouse and a trackpoint or joystick is that all of these essentially measure force on them, with that input converted by software to velocity (or angular velocity). If you let go they move back to a neutral position instead of staying where you put them. They do not measure the direct displacement or rotation of some physical component or body part. This is different than the input of a mouse or a touchscreen or a knob or a slider or a trackball or a scroll wheel or a dial or a stylus, but similar to the input of an analog trigger or pedal or steering wheel. > Trackball: 2 axis device A trackball with the appropriate sensor(s) can be a 3-axis input device (i.e. if the sensor fully characterizes the rotation). There have been several such devices made as research prototypes in various universities and corporate labs, and empirically they are much more efficient to use than space mouse for inputting rotations. However, they have never (as far as I know) been commercially produced. This is a shame, because I would love to have one, and building hardware for myself is a lot more effort than buying something off the shelf. > try flipping through pages on iPad for 1 hour straight vs. using PageUp and PageDown keys on a keyboard. See it for yourself which one is more tiring. This is a non sequitur. But to answer you, I am perfectly happy to flip physical pages on a book for 5 hours straight, without my fingers ever getting tired.
  - spectramax 7y ago
    > You completely missed my point. The part that is similar between a space space mouse and a trackpoint or joystick is that all of these essentially measure force on them, with that input converted by software to velocity (or angular velocity). If you let go they move back to a neutral position instead of staying where you put them. They do not measure the direct displacement or rotation of some physical component or body part. This is different than the input of a mouse or a touchscreen or a knob or a slider or a trackball or a scroll wheel or a dial or a stylus, but similar to the input of an analog trigger or pedal or steering wheel. Yep, I did. I am sorry. I personally cannot stand using a trackpoint for precisely the same reasons as you're describing. Conversely, I tremendously enjoy using a space mouse and you would have to snatch it from my dead cold hands! It is so good, I don't know how to explain. > This is a non sequitur. But to answer you, I am perfectly happy to flip physical pages on a book for 5 hours straight, without my fingers ever getting tired. As compared to PageUp/PageDown? Which one do you think would make you less tired?