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Most of the examples appear to be NoSQL datastores. Now it is kindof obvious why Datomic is not open-source. And yet software like Wordpress has thrived for ma

Most of the examples appear to be NoSQL datastores. Now it is kindof obvious why Datomic is not open-source. And yet software like Wordpress has thrived for many years without their creators being tempted to change licenses (Wordpress.com wasn't crushed by AWS, shared hosting or even WP-as-a-service vendors). What is different about these DBs?

ohazi 7y ago
Consumers don't really care whether the software they use is open-source, they'll just use whatever looks good and works. So hosted WordPress does well, but Medium also does well. Engineers are rightfully wary of using proprietary databases. Decades of bugs leading to integrity issues on decades worth of data. They're not willing to relive those days. Luckily, the world of open-source, battle-tested, academically reviewed databases is large and mature. So any upstart peddling funky "throw out all that academic rigor and try this nosql shit" is rightfully squinted at. Open-source has essentially become table stakes for DBs, since no engineer will look at you otherwise. These nosql companies are trying to be proprietary while still meeting the table stakes. Given the other expectations around open-source, the whole thing has a "two kids in a trenchcoat" look to it.
- kemonocode 7y ago
  At this point I have yet to work on something that absolutely needs a NoSQL database so I may be a bit biased, but my general impression is they're a solution looking for a problem- or rather, the wrong solution to the wrong problem. I have used things like key-value stores such as memcached but it's also the kind of tools you don't use liberally unless you absolutely must. Perhaps a bit of obscurity isn't that bad of a thing after all. Doesn't help that people have been talking about the issues with NoSQL for quite a few years now [0] [0] http://cryto.net/~joepie91/blog/2015/07/19/why-you-should-never-ever-ever-use-mongodb/ http://cryto.net/~joepie91/blog/2015/07/19/why-you-should-ne... (although I do wonder how much of these points still apply)
  - ohazi 7y ago
    As far as i can tell, NoSQL is a reasonable way to store data that would otherwise go in a directory of files. If the lookup is anything more complicated than "I know exactly which file I want because I saved the relevant key in a real SQL database," then you're probably doing something wrong. Too many people start with NoSQL because "we gotta be cloud scale" without actually thinking about their data model, don't want to redo everything the first time they realize they need to do a join, and end up bolting on a slow, broken, inconsistent query system on top that ends up being orders of magnitude slower and more expensive than postgres running on a laptop.
- colejohnson66 7y ago
  > Engineers are rightfully wary of using proprietary databases. Decades of bugs leading to integrity issues on decades worth of data. They're not willing to relive those days. Luckily, the world of open-source, battle-tested, academically reviewed databases is large and mature. Not that you are, but we need to be careful with the “open source === good quality.” OpenSSL has Heartbleed for years
  - na85 7y ago
    I'd still argue that, despite Heartbleed, openssl was/is still of good quality.
kemonocode 7y ago
Probably because Wordpress offers something a bit more integrated and a more complete package than "just" a database. Most people don't only use MongoDB or Elasticsearch, they use it along with something else which then forms a complete product, even if those dependencies are vital or truly what makes them shine.

ohazi 7y ago

Consumers don't really care whether the software they use is open-source, they'll just use whatever looks good and works. So hosted WordPress does well, but Medium also does well. Engineers are rightfully wary of using proprietary databases. Decades of bugs leading to integrity issues on decades worth of data. They're not willing to relive those days. Luckily, the world of open-source, battle-tested, academically reviewed databases is large and mature. So any upstart peddling funky "throw out all that academic rigor and try this nosql shit" is rightfully squinted at. Open-source has essentially become table stakes for DBs, since no engineer will look at you otherwise. These nosql companies are trying to be proprietary while still meeting the table stakes. Given the other expectations around open-source, the whole thing has a "two kids in a trenchcoat" look to it.

kemonocode 7y ago
At this point I have yet to work on something that absolutely needs a NoSQL database so I may be a bit biased, but my general impression is they're a solution looking for a problem- or rather, the wrong solution to the wrong problem. I have used things like key-value stores such as memcached but it's also the kind of tools you don't use liberally unless you absolutely must. Perhaps a bit of obscurity isn't that bad of a thing after all. Doesn't help that people have been talking about the issues with NoSQL for quite a few years now [0] [0] http://cryto.net/~joepie91/blog/2015/07/19/why-you-should-never-ever-ever-use-mongodb/ http://cryto.net/~joepie91/blog/2015/07/19/why-you-should-ne... (although I do wonder how much of these points still apply)
- ohazi 7y ago
  As far as i can tell, NoSQL is a reasonable way to store data that would otherwise go in a directory of files. If the lookup is anything more complicated than "I know exactly which file I want because I saved the relevant key in a real SQL database," then you're probably doing something wrong. Too many people start with NoSQL because "we gotta be cloud scale" without actually thinking about their data model, don't want to redo everything the first time they realize they need to do a join, and end up bolting on a slow, broken, inconsistent query system on top that ends up being orders of magnitude slower and more expensive than postgres running on a laptop.
colejohnson66 7y ago
> Engineers are rightfully wary of using proprietary databases. Decades of bugs leading to integrity issues on decades worth of data. They're not willing to relive those days. Luckily, the world of open-source, battle-tested, academically reviewed databases is large and mature. Not that you are, but we need to be careful with the “open source === good quality.” OpenSSL has Heartbleed for years
- na85 7y ago
  I'd still argue that, despite Heartbleed, openssl was/is still of good quality.

kemonocode 7y ago

Probably because Wordpress offers something a bit more integrated and a more complete package than "just" a database. Most people don't only use MongoDB or Elasticsearch, they use it along with something else which then forms a complete product, even if those dependencies are vital or truly what makes them shine.