3 ms·

Neither social institution could adhere to any rigid ideology. A social institution, which does not correct basic assumptions and axioms lying in its foundation

Neither social institution could adhere to any rigid ideology. A social institution, which does not correct basic assumptions and axioms lying in its foundation according to new knowledge and data, is doomed. Any widespread movement or social institution exists under the pressure of new facts, new social norms, hence any social institution is a flexible moving target. Only the heterodox, marginal movements can adhere to a rigid ideology. Mainstream science can't have one, only marginal branches can. Modern economics is not a "neoliberal" plot, of course, there is a strong scientific discussion, various competing theories within it, which are constantly being validated using statistics, and omitted, if proved wrong. Economics today, 25 years ago and 50 years ago vastly differs even in methodology, it's a very vigorous field. To say that this edifice is grounded in some ideology, one needs to omit all that constant scientific discussion, render empirically proved parts as ideological, axioms as "truths" etc. This kind of intellectual dishonesty could come only from a ideology-loaded follower of some heterodox (and usually pseudoscientific) theory, most likely grounded in some ideology (guessing from value judgments of op like "neoliberal" -- left one) rather than verified by empiric data.

jevgeni 7y ago
Very well put! Thank you! I agree.
ClumsyPilot 7y ago
I think the problem is many mistake mainstream political opinion for the prevailing scientific opinion. Most economists do not agree with the way our economy is being managed right now. The current political prevailing wind is definitely neoliberal. Of-course most people do not read economics papers.
morningseagulls 7y ago
>Mainstream science can't have one, only marginal branches can. This is like native speakers of a language (say, English) asserting that only non-native speakers of their language have accents. You do, you just speak with an accent that's considered to be standard. >This kind of intellectual dishonesty could come only from a ideology-loaded follower of some heterodox (and usually pseudoscientific) theory, most likely grounded in some ideology (guessing from value judgments of op like "neoliberal" -- left one) rather than verified by empiric data. And mainstream (i.e. neoclassical) economics[0] does that, even in the face of mathematical reality, let alone empirical data.[1] The ignorance of the implications of the SMD theorem,[2] because it implies that the aggregation problem remains unsolved and the fundamental breakdown of the "law" of demand, was a profoundly anti-intellectual move. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoclassical_economics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoclassical_economics [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21269064 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21269064 [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sonnenschein%E2%80%93Mantel%E2%80%93Debreu_theorem https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sonnenschein%E2%80%93Mantel%E2...
- ernst_klim 7y ago
  > The ignorance of the implications of the SMD theorem You are confusing different things together. Mainstream exists in a form it is not because Mainstream translates the Truth™, but because there are no better theories yet. Newton's mechanics is worse than Einstein theory in describing celestial bodies' movements, yet the former was better than anything until the latter appeared. I have a lot to argue against neoclassical economy, especially about its view of a person as a profit-driven (rational, as they call it) degenerate, or fondness of regressions in the mid of chaos. Yet it changes in the right direction, behavioral economics appeared, regressions are taken with a grain of salt now, rational choice is heavily criticized. The problem is that no heterodox theory provides both an axiomatic basis and empirical framework to compete mainstream economic science. What would you propose instead of Neoclassical economics? Nothing? It's not ignorance to accept theory that is not always true, it's stupidity to omit theory without having anything better, as Lakatos would say. As for ideology, I don't see such a thing. People in mainstream science vary from Joseph "We all need to follow Venezuela example" Stiglitz to post Austrians like William White.
  - morningseagulls 7y ago
    >Mainstream exists in a form it is not because Mainstream translates the Truth™, but because there are no better theories yet. Where have I heard that before? Oh yeah, the string wars in theoretical physics. >Newton's mechanics is worse than Einstein theory in describing celestial bodies' movements, yet the former was better than anything until the latter appeared. In its early days, the Copernican model was no better than the mainstream Ptolemaic model at describing the motion of celestial bodies: For his contemporaries, the ideas presented by Copernicus were not markedly easier to use than the geocentric theory and did not produce more accurate predictions of planetary positions. Copernicus was aware of this and could not present any observational "proof", relying instead on arguments about what would be a more complete and elegant system.[0] >I have a lot to argue against neoclassical economy, especially about its view of a person as a profit-driven (rational, as they call it) degenerate I think you're confusing a person with a firm. A person has rational preferences[1] -- another unrealistic assumption -- while a firm seeks to maximise profits. >The problem is that no heterodox theory provides both an axiomatic basis and empirical framework to compete mainstream economic science. The idea that an axiomatic basis is necessary for a good theory is classic physics envy[2], and ignores the fact that even physics itself does not have an axiomatic basis, because that is Hilbert's sixth problem, which remains open.[3] I don't know why this phenomenon is called "physics" envy anyway: it seems like you want economics to follow the model of Euclidean geometry, hence "mathematics" envy, which is even more absurd. I get that mainstream economics has become more diverse, but neoclassical economics, which I believe is still the dominant school, is based on postulates that are simply unsupported by empirical -- and even mathematical -- evidence. >What would you propose instead of Neoclassical economics? Nothing? A critical synthesis of everything that isn't marginalism? An empirical search for a new framework with postulates backed by evidence? And perhaps economists should learn more mathematics and have the courage to invent their own tools. After all, if you want to carry on with your physics envy, you should know that Feynman invented his own integral[4], which mathematicians derided for a long time for its lack of rigour... until its power became clear, at which point the functional analysts got down to work to extract the deep mathematics underlying Feynman's formalism.[5] >It's not ignorance to accept theory that is not always true This is an acceptance of Friedman's discredited positivism. >it's stupidity to omit theory without having anything better We have, and had, better: marginalism (aka neoclassical economics) was heavily criticised even during the 20th century. It's stupidity to cling to a theory when there are better ones. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copernican_heliocentrism#Early_criticisms https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copernican_heliocentrism#Early... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preference_(economics)#Applications_to_theories_of_utility https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preference_(economics)#Applica... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physics_envy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physics_envy [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hilbert%27s_sixth_problem#Status https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hilbert%27s_sixth_problem#Stat... [4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Path_integral_formulation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Path_integral_formulation [5] https://ncatlab.org/nlab/show/path+integral https://ncatlab.org/nlab/show/path+integral

jevgeni 7y ago

Very well put! Thank you! I agree.

ClumsyPilot 7y ago

I think the problem is many mistake mainstream political opinion for the prevailing scientific opinion. Most economists do not agree with the way our economy is being managed right now. The current political prevailing wind is definitely neoliberal. Of-course most people do not read economics papers.

morningseagulls 7y ago

>Mainstream science can't have one, only marginal branches can. This is like native speakers of a language (say, English) asserting that only non-native speakers of their language have accents. You do, you just speak with an accent that's considered to be standard. >This kind of intellectual dishonesty could come only from a ideology-loaded follower of some heterodox (and usually pseudoscientific) theory, most likely grounded in some ideology (guessing from value judgments of op like "neoliberal" -- left one) rather than verified by empiric data. And mainstream (i.e. neoclassical) economics[0] does that, even in the face of mathematical reality, let alone empirical data.[1] The ignorance of the implications of the SMD theorem,[2] because it implies that the aggregation problem remains unsolved and the fundamental breakdown of the "law" of demand, was a profoundly anti-intellectual move. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoclassical_economics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoclassical_economics [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21269064 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21269064 [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sonnenschein%E2%80%93Mantel%E2%80%93Debreu_theorem https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sonnenschein%E2%80%93Mantel%E2...

ernst_klim 7y ago
> The ignorance of the implications of the SMD theorem You are confusing different things together. Mainstream exists in a form it is not because Mainstream translates the Truth™, but because there are no better theories yet. Newton's mechanics is worse than Einstein theory in describing celestial bodies' movements, yet the former was better than anything until the latter appeared. I have a lot to argue against neoclassical economy, especially about its view of a person as a profit-driven (rational, as they call it) degenerate, or fondness of regressions in the mid of chaos. Yet it changes in the right direction, behavioral economics appeared, regressions are taken with a grain of salt now, rational choice is heavily criticized. The problem is that no heterodox theory provides both an axiomatic basis and empirical framework to compete mainstream economic science. What would you propose instead of Neoclassical economics? Nothing? It's not ignorance to accept theory that is not always true, it's stupidity to omit theory without having anything better, as Lakatos would say. As for ideology, I don't see such a thing. People in mainstream science vary from Joseph "We all need to follow Venezuela example" Stiglitz to post Austrians like William White.
- morningseagulls 7y ago
  >Mainstream exists in a form it is not because Mainstream translates the Truth™, but because there are no better theories yet. Where have I heard that before? Oh yeah, the string wars in theoretical physics. >Newton's mechanics is worse than Einstein theory in describing celestial bodies' movements, yet the former was better than anything until the latter appeared. In its early days, the Copernican model was no better than the mainstream Ptolemaic model at describing the motion of celestial bodies: For his contemporaries, the ideas presented by Copernicus were not markedly easier to use than the geocentric theory and did not produce more accurate predictions of planetary positions. Copernicus was aware of this and could not present any observational "proof", relying instead on arguments about what would be a more complete and elegant system.[0] >I have a lot to argue against neoclassical economy, especially about its view of a person as a profit-driven (rational, as they call it) degenerate I think you're confusing a person with a firm. A person has rational preferences[1] -- another unrealistic assumption -- while a firm seeks to maximise profits. >The problem is that no heterodox theory provides both an axiomatic basis and empirical framework to compete mainstream economic science. The idea that an axiomatic basis is necessary for a good theory is classic physics envy[2], and ignores the fact that even physics itself does not have an axiomatic basis, because that is Hilbert's sixth problem, which remains open.[3] I don't know why this phenomenon is called "physics" envy anyway: it seems like you want economics to follow the model of Euclidean geometry, hence "mathematics" envy, which is even more absurd. I get that mainstream economics has become more diverse, but neoclassical economics, which I believe is still the dominant school, is based on postulates that are simply unsupported by empirical -- and even mathematical -- evidence. >What would you propose instead of Neoclassical economics? Nothing? A critical synthesis of everything that isn't marginalism? An empirical search for a new framework with postulates backed by evidence? And perhaps economists should learn more mathematics and have the courage to invent their own tools. After all, if you want to carry on with your physics envy, you should know that Feynman invented his own integral[4], which mathematicians derided for a long time for its lack of rigour... until its power became clear, at which point the functional analysts got down to work to extract the deep mathematics underlying Feynman's formalism.[5] >It's not ignorance to accept theory that is not always true This is an acceptance of Friedman's discredited positivism. >it's stupidity to omit theory without having anything better We have, and had, better: marginalism (aka neoclassical economics) was heavily criticised even during the 20th century. It's stupidity to cling to a theory when there are better ones. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copernican_heliocentrism#Early_criticisms https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copernican_heliocentrism#Early... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preference_(economics)#Applications_to_theories_of_utility https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preference_(economics)#Applica... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physics_envy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physics_envy [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hilbert%27s_sixth_problem#Status https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hilbert%27s_sixth_problem#Stat... [4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Path_integral_formulation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Path_integral_formulation [5] https://ncatlab.org/nlab/show/path+integral https://ncatlab.org/nlab/show/path+integral