4 ms·

>I’d love to see that common thought validated because in practice I’ve seen it to not be true at all. If you have Javascript devs that came out of some boot c

>I’d love to see that common thought validated because in practice I’ve seen it to not be true at all. If you have Javascript devs that came out of some boot camp with no knowledge of either, do you teach algorithms 101 or low-level CPU programming 101 first? I would argue your codebase would benefit from teaching them algorithms first, then the other one. >In my experience in either high throughput or low latency systems algorithmic complexity is never the issue. Do you encounter those workloads written in Javascript often?

emsy 7y ago
>If you have Javascript devs that came out of some boot camp Do you also go to a doctor that came out of a bootcamp? Is your house built by a constructor that came out of a bootcamp? Would you fly with an aviator that came out of a bootcamp? Would you run banking software made by a developer that came out of a bootcamp?
- NotATroll 7y ago
  So how, precisely, is anyone supposed to get experience if it's unacceptable to hire them fresh out of "boot camp". Even if you go "INTERNSHIP". Well what, is everyone supposed to stick the unpaid intern on toy apps that don't give them any actual real world experience writing actual production software? Cause then the next argument will just be "Do you also go to a doctor that came out of an internship? Is you house built by a constructor that came out of an internship?". Elitism at its finest.
  - emsy 7y ago
    >Elitism at its finest. Do you think doctors in training get to do open heart surgeries by themselves fresh out of university? Do you think we train aviators that can only fly using the autopilot? Because that's the way we treat software developers. This has nothing to do with elitism and everything with professionalism. Our industry has built training wheels in form of various VMs and high level languages because it missed the opportunity to properly train its workforce.
    - NotATroll 7y ago
      Again, just more insane elitism. You keep going to the "OH MY GOD, PEOPLE WOULD DIE" examples to try and make a fairly weak point. No one is going to die, because some noob made a crappy little site out of the millions of crappy little sites, and it's not performing like a demi-god. VMs and high level languages aren't "training wheels". Especially not VMs, that's just complete and utter non-sense. Unless you think literally every website on the web should have a 100% dedicated server box. VMs are good for a great many of things, both noob-friendly and not. As for high level languages, they were meant for one particular thing. To get a task done quickly. Which is largely the real reason why so much software out in the wild performs like crap. Anyone can sit down and spend years making a highly performant piece of software. But when things have to move fast, corners get cut & there's not enough time dedicated to researching to get said product to be as highly performant.
      - emsy 7y ago
        Just to be clear: VM means a language VM like the JVM. I don’t have a problem with high level languages in general, but the gains in developer efficiency tend to be paid for by the CPU. No I don’t think people die (although I wouldn’t be surprised if that was the case). I just don’t want to have to buy a 3000$ PC so I can run a fucking chat app, an editor and a browser somewhat decently. The opportunity cost of bad software is paid by billions of users every day.
        pjmlp 7y ago
        Yet all that performance optimization gets thrown away when running on virtualized containers alongside sanitizers. By the way, my language VM is your language runtime.
        emsy 7y ago
        Yes runtime is the better word and the JVM was a bad example anyway. There are much worse offenders when it comes to throwing away CPU power.
ScottFree 7y ago
> If you have Javascript devs that came out of some boot camp with no knowledge of either, do you teach algorithms 101 or low-level CPU programming 101 first? The latter. It's also known as "computer architecture" and is something typically taught in the first two years of a bachelor's degree. How can you hope to learn to properly program a computer if you don't know what a computer is?
- emsy 7y ago
  That’s an unpopular opinion on HN, and not because you can’t learn those thing outside of university (because you absolutely can). But because there’s a push by the industry to make programming a low skill/low wage job. Many are still enjoying a low skill/high pay career and want to remain blissfully ignorant of their future.
  - ScottFree 7y ago
    > That’s an unpopular opinion on HN Too bad for HN, then, because commodifying web development has done it no favors. > Many are still enjoying a low skill/high pay career and want to remain blissfully ignorant of their future. That's where I was a few years ago. I'm a web developer who recently went back and re-learned all the low level stuff I forgot and didn't think was necessary 20 years ago. I was wrong.

emsy 7y ago

>If you have Javascript devs that came out of some boot camp Do you also go to a doctor that came out of a bootcamp? Is your house built by a constructor that came out of a bootcamp? Would you fly with an aviator that came out of a bootcamp? Would you run banking software made by a developer that came out of a bootcamp?

NotATroll 7y ago
So how, precisely, is anyone supposed to get experience if it's unacceptable to hire them fresh out of "boot camp". Even if you go "INTERNSHIP". Well what, is everyone supposed to stick the unpaid intern on toy apps that don't give them any actual real world experience writing actual production software? Cause then the next argument will just be "Do you also go to a doctor that came out of an internship? Is you house built by a constructor that came out of an internship?". Elitism at its finest.
- emsy 7y ago
  >Elitism at its finest. Do you think doctors in training get to do open heart surgeries by themselves fresh out of university? Do you think we train aviators that can only fly using the autopilot? Because that's the way we treat software developers. This has nothing to do with elitism and everything with professionalism. Our industry has built training wheels in form of various VMs and high level languages because it missed the opportunity to properly train its workforce.
  - NotATroll 7y ago
    Again, just more insane elitism. You keep going to the "OH MY GOD, PEOPLE WOULD DIE" examples to try and make a fairly weak point. No one is going to die, because some noob made a crappy little site out of the millions of crappy little sites, and it's not performing like a demi-god. VMs and high level languages aren't "training wheels". Especially not VMs, that's just complete and utter non-sense. Unless you think literally every website on the web should have a 100% dedicated server box. VMs are good for a great many of things, both noob-friendly and not. As for high level languages, they were meant for one particular thing. To get a task done quickly. Which is largely the real reason why so much software out in the wild performs like crap. Anyone can sit down and spend years making a highly performant piece of software. But when things have to move fast, corners get cut & there's not enough time dedicated to researching to get said product to be as highly performant.
    - emsy 7y ago
      Just to be clear: VM means a language VM like the JVM. I don’t have a problem with high level languages in general, but the gains in developer efficiency tend to be paid for by the CPU. No I don’t think people die (although I wouldn’t be surprised if that was the case). I just don’t want to have to buy a 3000$ PC so I can run a fucking chat app, an editor and a browser somewhat decently. The opportunity cost of bad software is paid by billions of users every day.
      - pjmlp 7y ago
        Yet all that performance optimization gets thrown away when running on virtualized containers alongside sanitizers. By the way, my language VM is your language runtime.
        emsy 7y ago
        Yes runtime is the better word and the JVM was a bad example anyway. There are much worse offenders when it comes to throwing away CPU power.

ScottFree 7y ago

> If you have Javascript devs that came out of some boot camp with no knowledge of either, do you teach algorithms 101 or low-level CPU programming 101 first? The latter. It's also known as "computer architecture" and is something typically taught in the first two years of a bachelor's degree. How can you hope to learn to properly program a computer if you don't know what a computer is?

emsy 7y ago
That’s an unpopular opinion on HN, and not because you can’t learn those thing outside of university (because you absolutely can). But because there’s a push by the industry to make programming a low skill/low wage job. Many are still enjoying a low skill/high pay career and want to remain blissfully ignorant of their future.
- ScottFree 7y ago
  > That’s an unpopular opinion on HN Too bad for HN, then, because commodifying web development has done it no favors. > Many are still enjoying a low skill/high pay career and want to remain blissfully ignorant of their future. That's where I was a few years ago. I'm a web developer who recently went back and re-learned all the low level stuff I forgot and didn't think was necessary 20 years ago. I was wrong.