4 ms·

They will first have to teach you the difference between taking part in a sentence out its full context and then actually being intellectually honest and not ju

They will first have to teach you the difference between taking part in a sentence out its full context and then actually being intellectually honest and not just strawman them. One of the first things I taught them. A school network applied to all of New York state is hardly an anecdote and it's frankly telling how quick you and others where to jump onto that idea. https://www.aei.org/carpe-diem/more-on-the-phenomenal-eye-popping-success-of-success-academy-charter-schools-in-nyc/ https://www.aei.org/carpe-diem/more-on-the-phenomenal-eye-po...

eitally 7y ago
Look, when I was in high school we had our first period starting at 7:07am, and the school overall was released at 2:15pm. Plenty of kids, myself included, performed just fine. But, that doesn't mean it's physiologically optimal, and it also doesn't mean it's practical for families to get kids in bed at an appropriate time. Anecdotally, I know lots of families whose middle schoolers are regularly up until 10-11pm doing homework. This is particularly true for those kids participating in time-consuming extra-curriculars. It's probably physiologically accurate that later start times are better for children. This bill is research-backed. It also makes things harder for parents who will then need to find long before-care options or start their own commutes later. Also anecdotally, I have two children in elementary school, who also play competitive soccer with training 4 days/wk. Soccer is typically 1.5hr at a time, and either 4:30-6pm or 5-6:30pm. Training fields are 15-20min drive from our house. School gets out at 2:15, but we have to pick up our 2yo from daycare before the older ones get home (no bussing service because we're <1mi from the school). The result is that the older ones get home, unpack their backpacks, change into soccer gear, have time for a snack and perhaps 15-30 minutes for homework (besides written homework, they also have to read 30 minutes every day) before leaving for soccer. My wife thankfully works from home and is able to handle the afternoon routine after having shifted her work schedule 3 timezones (5am-2pm). I pick everyone up from soccer practice and then we get home, shower and eat dinner from around 6:45-7:45. Then it's time to finish homework and reading. I'm lucky they get to go to bed by 8:30-9:00pm. Then I wake them up at 6:15 to get ready for band practice at school @7:15. This is an anecdote about an 8 & 10 year old in the bay area, and we have excellent work situations (I work for a flexible tech company, and my wife works a shifted schedule from home). If we both worked traditional 8-5 schedules, the majority of what our kids are able to do now would not be possible: they'd go to YMCA before care on campus around 7am and then to aftercare until 5:30pm. Sports would be out of the question unless we made arrangements with friends. There would be no decompression time after school and before home/family/activity time.
- ThomPete 7y ago
  Go back and read what I was responding to. I was responding to a claim that you are not awake at 8 to which I responded that depends on when you put your kids to sleep. I wasn't even introducing the idea of performance. I was responding to a blanket claim about performance with a rather non-anecdotal example of SA schools dominating the performance list yet having one of the earliest times of school attendance. If you haven't seen it click on the link and if that doesn't convince you that it's more than anecdotal then I just don't know what will. All the studies is fundamentally about sleeping time NOT about at which hour it's optimal to be in school which is exactly my point yet somehow it gets completely ignored and everyone just yells anecdotal. It's not anecdotal it's statistical with a sample of more than 2000 schools and SA dominating almost all the top 30 results and that with schools that have a majority of black and hispanic kids.
dragonwriter 7y ago
> A school network applied to all of New York state is hardly an anecdote Maybe another thing your top performing students in their top performing school network can explain to you is the difference between evidence and irrelevancy; specifically, that, with California being the first state to mandate a later start time, its unusual for schools to start later (New York is experimenting with some later start times, but very few schools have them [0]), so, really, neither your sons’ status nor those of their network indicate (as evidence or even anecdote) anything contrary to the research at issue here (nor, to take the next step, necessarily would their school even if a sizable number of others did start significantly later unless it was similar to those later-starting schools in all other respects besides start time; for some reason you've posted an argument from a libertarian propaganda mill which does nothing relative to the discussion but make a case as to why you raising it in this discussion is the farthest thing possible from relevant for that reason.) I get that you are proud of your sons and like their school network. I can't figure out why you think either are relevant to the matter at hand.
- ThomPete 7y ago
  18% of new york schools have a start time later than 8.30 a huge number have between 8 and 8.30, SA starts at 7:45 yet dominates the best performing elementary school. If you can't see the relevance then perhaps my boys should teach you about statistical significance you are clearly confusing it with arrogance. We are talking about 2400 elementary schools and SA being in the top 30 dominating almost every position there.
  - tripzilch 7y ago
    Can you at least try to understand what people are trying to tell you?
    - ThomPete 7y ago
      I am understanding what they are trying to tell me, they are just wrong about it for reasons I have already explained.

eitally 7y ago

Look, when I was in high school we had our first period starting at 7:07am, and the school overall was released at 2:15pm. Plenty of kids, myself included, performed just fine. But, that doesn't mean it's physiologically optimal, and it also doesn't mean it's practical for families to get kids in bed at an appropriate time. Anecdotally, I know lots of families whose middle schoolers are regularly up until 10-11pm doing homework. This is particularly true for those kids participating in time-consuming extra-curriculars. It's probably physiologically accurate that later start times are better for children. This bill is research-backed. It also makes things harder for parents who will then need to find long before-care options or start their own commutes later. Also anecdotally, I have two children in elementary school, who also play competitive soccer with training 4 days/wk. Soccer is typically 1.5hr at a time, and either 4:30-6pm or 5-6:30pm. Training fields are 15-20min drive from our house. School gets out at 2:15, but we have to pick up our 2yo from daycare before the older ones get home (no bussing service because we're <1mi from the school). The result is that the older ones get home, unpack their backpacks, change into soccer gear, have time for a snack and perhaps 15-30 minutes for homework (besides written homework, they also have to read 30 minutes every day) before leaving for soccer. My wife thankfully works from home and is able to handle the afternoon routine after having shifted her work schedule 3 timezones (5am-2pm). I pick everyone up from soccer practice and then we get home, shower and eat dinner from around 6:45-7:45. Then it's time to finish homework and reading. I'm lucky they get to go to bed by 8:30-9:00pm. Then I wake them up at 6:15 to get ready for band practice at school @7:15. This is an anecdote about an 8 & 10 year old in the bay area, and we have excellent work situations (I work for a flexible tech company, and my wife works a shifted schedule from home). If we both worked traditional 8-5 schedules, the majority of what our kids are able to do now would not be possible: they'd go to YMCA before care on campus around 7am and then to aftercare until 5:30pm. Sports would be out of the question unless we made arrangements with friends. There would be no decompression time after school and before home/family/activity time.

ThomPete 7y ago
Go back and read what I was responding to. I was responding to a claim that you are not awake at 8 to which I responded that depends on when you put your kids to sleep. I wasn't even introducing the idea of performance. I was responding to a blanket claim about performance with a rather non-anecdotal example of SA schools dominating the performance list yet having one of the earliest times of school attendance. If you haven't seen it click on the link and if that doesn't convince you that it's more than anecdotal then I just don't know what will. All the studies is fundamentally about sleeping time NOT about at which hour it's optimal to be in school which is exactly my point yet somehow it gets completely ignored and everyone just yells anecdotal. It's not anecdotal it's statistical with a sample of more than 2000 schools and SA dominating almost all the top 30 results and that with schools that have a majority of black and hispanic kids.

dragonwriter 7y ago

> A school network applied to all of New York state is hardly an anecdote Maybe another thing your top performing students in their top performing school network can explain to you is the difference between evidence and irrelevancy; specifically, that, with California being the first state to mandate a later start time, its unusual for schools to start later (New York is experimenting with some later start times, but very few schools have them [0]), so, really, neither your sons’ status nor those of their network indicate (as evidence or even anecdote) anything contrary to the research at issue here (nor, to take the next step, necessarily would their school even if a sizable number of others did start significantly later unless it was similar to those later-starting schools in all other respects besides start time; for some reason you've posted an argument from a libertarian propaganda mill which does nothing relative to the discussion but make a case as to why you raising it in this discussion is the farthest thing possible from relevant for that reason.) I get that you are proud of your sons and like their school network. I can't figure out why you think either are relevant to the matter at hand.

ThomPete 7y ago
18% of new york schools have a start time later than 8.30 a huge number have between 8 and 8.30, SA starts at 7:45 yet dominates the best performing elementary school. If you can't see the relevance then perhaps my boys should teach you about statistical significance you are clearly confusing it with arrogance. We are talking about 2400 elementary schools and SA being in the top 30 dominating almost every position there.
- tripzilch 7y ago
  Can you at least try to understand what people are trying to tell you?
  - ThomPete 7y ago
    I am understanding what they are trying to tell me, they are just wrong about it for reasons I have already explained.