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That seems reasonable to me. I've often found optimism in others to be foolish. And for bipolar me, extreme optimism is a sign of hypomania. But there's a lot

That seems reasonable to me. I've often found optimism in others to be foolish. And for bipolar me, extreme optimism is a sign of hypomania. But there's a lot more to depression than seeing the world realistically. There's a tendency to feel inadequate, hopeless and disempowered. And there's more to that than seeing oneself and ones capabilities realistically. One aspect is failing to break out huge problems into manageable pieces.

luckynumber007 7y ago
One aspect is failing to break out huge problems into manageable pieces. This is the main problem I have had with depression. Beeing overwhelmed by the smallest problem because the consecquences of all actions that has to be taken to solve it.
- wolfgke 7y ago
  > One aspect is failing to break out huge problems into manageable pieces. Isn't this rather a sign that the world is simply too complex and should be simplified?
  - mirimir 7y ago
    I'd say that stuff must be simplified, if you want to accomplish anything.
  - tempguy9999 7y ago
    BTDT and I'd say no, it's a psychological effect of being overwhelmed mentally, even if you could handle it in better circumstances. Even the most trivial problems become crushing. Even imagined problems.
  - journalctl 7y ago
    Nah. I’ve had trouble convincing myself that doing dishes wasn’t an insurmountable task. Depression messes with your perspective. Basic, easy tasks seem impossible.
    - mirimir 7y ago
      I have that problem too. But I've learned that dirty dishes stabilize if you let them air dry. They don't even smell bad. Or get moldy. And after soaking an hour or two in hot water with detergent, they're easy to wash. So then I just need to wash whatever I need for the next meal. And of course, leave enough clean for my wife to use.
wildduck 7y ago
While this is valid view. It is a view. Language can be used to describe reality or to create it. >That seems reasonable to me. I've often found optimism in others to be foolish. "Stay hungry, stay foolish",- Steve Job's commencement speech at Stanford. Sometime foolishness is what make a difference. It is really all about timing and context.
- cco 7y ago
  I think you're missing the point, it is foolish, it doesn't map to reality, but that doesn't make it maladaptive. The point here is that the maladaptive group, depressed people, see the world closer to its real state, clearly it is advantageous for humans to see the world through rose colored glasses to some degree.
- bigred100 7y ago
  My basic understanding is that Steve Jobs was a manipulative, mentally ill child abuser who gets a pass because he made the iPod. Everyone has their own perspective, but I’d rather not be those things than do them and make a difference by manufacturing popular consumer goods. But this is of course not an argument for depression.
- mirimir 7y ago
  There is the perspective that reality is what you say it is. And empowering interpretations provide openings for actions. But then there's hypomania.
mikorym 7y ago
I think optimism is a kind of personal thing—you can't always tell its level by observing someone. I think optimistic cynicism is a thing. PS in psychology they have a concept called appropriate affect. Its kind of the opposite of cognitive dissonance.
- mirimir 7y ago
  I just meant what they say. I have no insight into what they actually feel.
mellowdream 7y ago
From my own experience I'd agree with this - I can feel down, certainly, but I'm nowhere near the non-functioning, clinically depressed state I was in for 4 years a few years back. I don't think the "realistic" vision I had of "the world" has really changed, just the attitude: I'm still "stupid as f*ck" and observing "person X I knew in high school totally has such a better life than I do" - but now, it's about interpreting it as a reason that things should probably change, whether it's the perspective ("So what?") or the action ("Are you not even going to try doing something about it?"). OTOH, it really doesn't help that there are so many more things to be depressed about pretty much all the time - abuses of social media, pornography, addiction, fracturing social structures. I ask, incredulously, how can anyone read this [1] and NOT want to die, or at least profoundly sympathize? People haven't evolved "rosy enough glasses" to mask these symptoms of modernity - of course there are problems, both with "the world" and our abilities to get by. "How shall we comfort ourselves, the murderers of all murderers? What was holiest and mightiest of all that the world has yet owned has bled to death under our knives: who will wipe this blood off us? What water is there for us to clean ourselves? What festivals of atonement, what sacred games shall we have to invent? Is not the greatness of this deed too great for us?" 1 https://incels.wiki/w/Scientific_Blackpill https://incels.wiki/w/Scientific_Blackpill
- journalctl 7y ago
  I too wonder what would possess anyone to earnestly read the incel wiki...
- mfoy_ 7y ago
  What a humdinger of a Table of Contents...
SuoDuanDao 7y ago
I'm reminded of the 'ultimate perspective vortex' from the Hitchiker's Guide to the Galaxy, a terrifying execution device that showed people exactly how significant they were in the grande scheme of things for an instant. Sounds a bit similar to what you're describing.
- 52-6F-62 7y ago
  That’s exactly it and I imagine a big piece of what actually makes a depressed person more tuned to reality. I’m not sure which is the cause exactly, but I could imagine a person depressed spending more time ruminating about their place and deferring to the external for answers versus trusting one’s own feelings or perspectives by default.

luckynumber007 7y ago

One aspect is failing to break out huge problems into manageable pieces. This is the main problem I have had with depression. Beeing overwhelmed by the smallest problem because the consecquences of all actions that has to be taken to solve it.

wolfgke 7y ago
> One aspect is failing to break out huge problems into manageable pieces. Isn't this rather a sign that the world is simply too complex and should be simplified?
- mirimir 7y ago
  I'd say that stuff must be simplified, if you want to accomplish anything.
- tempguy9999 7y ago
  BTDT and I'd say no, it's a psychological effect of being overwhelmed mentally, even if you could handle it in better circumstances. Even the most trivial problems become crushing. Even imagined problems.
- journalctl 7y ago
  Nah. I’ve had trouble convincing myself that doing dishes wasn’t an insurmountable task. Depression messes with your perspective. Basic, easy tasks seem impossible.
  - mirimir 7y ago
    I have that problem too. But I've learned that dirty dishes stabilize if you let them air dry. They don't even smell bad. Or get moldy. And after soaking an hour or two in hot water with detergent, they're easy to wash. So then I just need to wash whatever I need for the next meal. And of course, leave enough clean for my wife to use.

wildduck 7y ago

While this is valid view. It is a view. Language can be used to describe reality or to create it. >That seems reasonable to me. I've often found optimism in others to be foolish. "Stay hungry, stay foolish",- Steve Job's commencement speech at Stanford. Sometime foolishness is what make a difference. It is really all about timing and context.

cco 7y ago
I think you're missing the point, it is foolish, it doesn't map to reality, but that doesn't make it maladaptive. The point here is that the maladaptive group, depressed people, see the world closer to its real state, clearly it is advantageous for humans to see the world through rose colored glasses to some degree.
bigred100 7y ago
My basic understanding is that Steve Jobs was a manipulative, mentally ill child abuser who gets a pass because he made the iPod. Everyone has their own perspective, but I’d rather not be those things than do them and make a difference by manufacturing popular consumer goods. But this is of course not an argument for depression.
mirimir 7y ago
There is the perspective that reality is what you say it is. And empowering interpretations provide openings for actions. But then there's hypomania.

mikorym 7y ago

I think optimism is a kind of personal thing—you can't always tell its level by observing someone. I think optimistic cynicism is a thing. PS in psychology they have a concept called appropriate affect. Its kind of the opposite of cognitive dissonance.

mirimir 7y ago
I just meant what they say. I have no insight into what they actually feel.

mellowdream 7y ago

From my own experience I'd agree with this - I can feel down, certainly, but I'm nowhere near the non-functioning, clinically depressed state I was in for 4 years a few years back. I don't think the "realistic" vision I had of "the world" has really changed, just the attitude: I'm still "stupid as f*ck" and observing "person X I knew in high school totally has such a better life than I do" - but now, it's about interpreting it as a reason that things should probably change, whether it's the perspective ("So what?") or the action ("Are you not even going to try doing something about it?"). OTOH, it really doesn't help that there are so many more things to be depressed about pretty much all the time - abuses of social media, pornography, addiction, fracturing social structures. I ask, incredulously, how can anyone read this [1] and NOT want to die, or at least profoundly sympathize? People haven't evolved "rosy enough glasses" to mask these symptoms of modernity - of course there are problems, both with "the world" and our abilities to get by. "How shall we comfort ourselves, the murderers of all murderers? What was holiest and mightiest of all that the world has yet owned has bled to death under our knives: who will wipe this blood off us? What water is there for us to clean ourselves? What festivals of atonement, what sacred games shall we have to invent? Is not the greatness of this deed too great for us?" 1 https://incels.wiki/w/Scientific_Blackpill https://incels.wiki/w/Scientific_Blackpill

journalctl 7y ago
I too wonder what would possess anyone to earnestly read the incel wiki...
mfoy_ 7y ago
What a humdinger of a Table of Contents...

SuoDuanDao 7y ago

I'm reminded of the 'ultimate perspective vortex' from the Hitchiker's Guide to the Galaxy, a terrifying execution device that showed people exactly how significant they were in the grande scheme of things for an instant. Sounds a bit similar to what you're describing.

52-6F-62 7y ago
That’s exactly it and I imagine a big piece of what actually makes a depressed person more tuned to reality. I’m not sure which is the cause exactly, but I could imagine a person depressed spending more time ruminating about their place and deferring to the external for answers versus trusting one’s own feelings or perspectives by default.