7 ms·

It indeed is unfortunate. But what other recourse did we have? The first objective, before we even consider donations or anything, is to make our software avail

by zx2c4 7y ago

It indeed is unfortunate. But what other recourse did we have? The first objective, before we even consider donations or anything, is to make our software available and functional to our users. So we had to resubmit. And it's not like the resubmission process is instantaneous; as of writing, the app still isn't back in the store. But anyway, now what? Let's say things return to normal, but we still want to put the silly link in the app. Our appeal was rejected. We could send letters, I suppose. Perhaps this article on HN will get the attention of the right people? We could appeal the appeal, maybe. And then appeal the appeal for the appeal. At what point does this become a waste of energy that could be spent coding and improving the app in other ways? It's hard to know where to draw the line and which battles are worth fighting. I'm happy to hear folks' opinions on the matter. I certainly agree, though, that it is unfortunate.

dessant 7y ago
Donations are not supported by in-app purchases, and I'm sure this doesn't mean open source apps are not allowed to sustain themselves by showing a donation link. Or if that is Google's unwritten policy, people must make their voices heard, this abusive behavior cannot be accepted. I would resubmit the app with the donation link and continue to document and share what happened. Please do not allow them to set a precedent with a popular project like WireGuard. It's important to share every detail of the issue, the messages you received, your replies, and the policy links you were given about the alleged policy violations.
- bipson 7y ago
  I think what you are proposing is to make an ideological fight out of this issue, that is exactly what the author describes as "a huge time-drain that does not make the app better" and exactly the opposite of what he meant with "choose your battles". Let me say that I think you're morally right, but it is probably not a reasonable choice of actions for the author and the users of the app.
  - dessant 7y ago
    There is no need for an ideological fight, because there is no written Google Play policy against donation links in apps. This is most likely a mistake made by the reviewer or an automated system, and I believe they should follow up on it to sort things out.
    - mcherm 7y ago
      > I believe they should follow up on it to sort things out. reply I'm sure you believe that. Do you work at Google in a position to supervise app reviews? Because if you do, then you can help straighten this out. If you don't, then it is hopeless. Technically, Google has the right to drop any app for any reason whether it is fair or not (so suing them or something isn't an option). OP already followed the ONLY channel that Google provides (an "appeal" handled, I presume, by a bot that generally issues quick, automated rejections. Sure, I wish Google had a better policy, with some sort of genuine appeal policy which included genuine human review, followed a consistent policy, and most likely had a public record of decisions... but they don't.
      - adambyrtek 7y ago
        I wouldn't assume up front that any action is hopeless. There are many Googlers on this forum and issues like that get forwarded and discussed internally. Google has Open Source Programs Office which used to have a lot of clout inside the company, at least at the time when I worked there.
- geofft 7y ago
  You are effectively proposing to spend the donated money on improving the Play Store instead of on improving Wireguard.
tcd 7y ago
It's amusing - I feel it's almost like causing a media "storm" is part of the whole "AI powered" process they've got going on. Create Reddit/Hackernews/tech blog outrage and maybe a human might step in and reverse the decision. You can look at r/videos and see how many examples there are, the link in [1] provides quite a few... So hey, go get people to repost across social media, maybe get a nice trendy hashtag going like #freewireguard and maybe their "AI" (or PR department) might actually do something useful. Because to me, I've noticed more and more companies only reverse decisions or backpeddle once there's enough shit flying at them (See Blizzard recently, for example). [1]: https://old.reddit.com/r/videos/search?q=flair%3AYouTube%2BDrama&restrict_sr=on&sort=new&t=all https://old.reddit.com/r/videos/search?q=flair%3AYouTube%2BD...
- acollins1331 7y ago
  Of course. No company will admit fault unless forced. The best PR move is wait for it to pass.
oh_sigh 7y ago
I can almost guarantee you that a googler who reads hn has submitted this issue to an internal mailing list and you will get special treatment for this problem.
- na85 7y ago
  It's fucking infuriating that the only way to get the attention of a human at Google is to know someone or to frontpage HN.
  - netsharc 7y ago
    Time for HN to branch out.. "HN Eyeballs, submit your gripe with Google, we'll show it to Googlers based on their IP address".
    - fauigerzigerk 7y ago
      As soon as you do that, the effect is gone. It can only ever work in a few isolated cases. Attention arbitrage so to speak
  - mschuster91 7y ago
    Or in Germany to get an emergency court order ("Einstweilige Verfügung"), dunno if the US has a similar legal venue. At least with an EV you get the immediate attention of their legal department.
    - bluGill 7y ago
      The US does, but courts are reluctant to issue them in general. Since google as a fair chance of winning the courts will probably reject the immediate order, and then this drags out in court for a few expensive years before a ruling is issued that could go either way, and either way will drag through the appeals process for many more expensive years.
    - flanbiscuit 7y ago
      Does GDPR cover these kind of issues where accounts/apps are demonetized or taken down because of some automated process mistake?

by zx2c4 7y ago

dessant 7y ago

Donations are not supported by in-app purchases, and I'm sure this doesn't mean open source apps are not allowed to sustain themselves by showing a donation link. Or if that is Google's unwritten policy, people must make their voices heard, this abusive behavior cannot be accepted. I would resubmit the app with the donation link and continue to document and share what happened. Please do not allow them to set a precedent with a popular project like WireGuard. It's important to share every detail of the issue, the messages you received, your replies, and the policy links you were given about the alleged policy violations.

bipson 7y ago
I think what you are proposing is to make an ideological fight out of this issue, that is exactly what the author describes as "a huge time-drain that does not make the app better" and exactly the opposite of what he meant with "choose your battles". Let me say that I think you're morally right, but it is probably not a reasonable choice of actions for the author and the users of the app.
- dessant 7y ago
  There is no need for an ideological fight, because there is no written Google Play policy against donation links in apps. This is most likely a mistake made by the reviewer or an automated system, and I believe they should follow up on it to sort things out.
  - mcherm 7y ago
    > I believe they should follow up on it to sort things out. reply I'm sure you believe that. Do you work at Google in a position to supervise app reviews? Because if you do, then you can help straighten this out. If you don't, then it is hopeless. Technically, Google has the right to drop any app for any reason whether it is fair or not (so suing them or something isn't an option). OP already followed the ONLY channel that Google provides (an "appeal" handled, I presume, by a bot that generally issues quick, automated rejections. Sure, I wish Google had a better policy, with some sort of genuine appeal policy which included genuine human review, followed a consistent policy, and most likely had a public record of decisions... but they don't.
    - adambyrtek 7y ago
      I wouldn't assume up front that any action is hopeless. There are many Googlers on this forum and issues like that get forwarded and discussed internally. Google has Open Source Programs Office which used to have a lot of clout inside the company, at least at the time when I worked there.
geofft 7y ago
You are effectively proposing to spend the donated money on improving the Play Store instead of on improving Wireguard.

tcd 7y ago

It's amusing - I feel it's almost like causing a media "storm" is part of the whole "AI powered" process they've got going on. Create Reddit/Hackernews/tech blog outrage and maybe a human might step in and reverse the decision. You can look at r/videos and see how many examples there are, the link in [1] provides quite a few... So hey, go get people to repost across social media, maybe get a nice trendy hashtag going like #freewireguard and maybe their "AI" (or PR department) might actually do something useful. Because to me, I've noticed more and more companies only reverse decisions or backpeddle once there's enough shit flying at them (See Blizzard recently, for example). [1]: https://old.reddit.com/r/videos/search?q=flair%3AYouTube%2BDrama&restrict_sr=on&sort=new&t=all https://old.reddit.com/r/videos/search?q=flair%3AYouTube%2BD...

acollins1331 7y ago
Of course. No company will admit fault unless forced. The best PR move is wait for it to pass.

oh_sigh 7y ago

I can almost guarantee you that a googler who reads hn has submitted this issue to an internal mailing list and you will get special treatment for this problem.

na85 7y ago
It's fucking infuriating that the only way to get the attention of a human at Google is to know someone or to frontpage HN.
- netsharc 7y ago
  Time for HN to branch out.. "HN Eyeballs, submit your gripe with Google, we'll show it to Googlers based on their IP address".
  - fauigerzigerk 7y ago
    As soon as you do that, the effect is gone. It can only ever work in a few isolated cases. Attention arbitrage so to speak
- mschuster91 7y ago
  Or in Germany to get an emergency court order ("Einstweilige Verfügung"), dunno if the US has a similar legal venue. At least with an EV you get the immediate attention of their legal department.
  - bluGill 7y ago
    The US does, but courts are reluctant to issue them in general. Since google as a fair chance of winning the courts will probably reject the immediate order, and then this drags out in court for a few expensive years before a ruling is issued that could go either way, and either way will drag through the appeals process for many more expensive years.
  - flanbiscuit 7y ago
    Does GDPR cover these kind of issues where accounts/apps are demonetized or taken down because of some automated process mistake?