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This will turn San Francisco’s Market St into a “Transit Mall”, an urban planning idea from decades ago that failed 85%+ of the times it has been tried. The one

This will turn San Francisco’s Market St into a “Transit Mall”, an urban planning idea from decades ago that failed 85%+ of the times it has been tried. The one new and hopeful element is the protected bike path. However because the area is already overwhelmed with a crime, drug and homeless problems and struggling retail and restaurants this project seems almost certain to end in disaster. More info here: https://nacto.org/docs/usdg/pedestrian_and_transit_malls_study_center_city_commission.pdf https://nacto.org/docs/usdg/pedestrian_and_transit_malls_stu... https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=RW09rbBLB5A https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=RW09rbBLB5A https://nacto.org/docs/usdg/revisiting_pedestrian_malls_scmidt.pdf https://nacto.org/docs/usdg/revisiting_pedestrian_malls_scmi... https://www.boulderdowntown.com/_files/docs/americanpedmallexperiment.pdf https://www.boulderdowntown.com/_files/docs/americanpedmalle... https://www.curbed.com/2019/9/30/20885226/best-pedestrian-mall-design https://www.curbed.com/2019/9/30/20885226/best-pedestrian-ma...

doctorpangloss 7y ago
That deck is from 2008, I bet I could find you a lot of failing retail and restaurant businesses that year. Furthermore, Lincoln Road Mall in Miami, which it lists as struggling, is definitely thriving today. I feel like the whole thing is bunk?
- robk 7y ago
  Lincoln road has high end shops and an excellent location on the water and there's no sign of a bus depot anywhere visible
  - spikels 7y ago
    Seems it’s all the tourists and the university campus that make Lincoln Road work. The key is lots of pedestrians that aren’t dependent on cars - tourists in hotels and students on campus are perfect. Unfortunately Market St doesn’t have much of either. You are correct that buses and light rail are a negative.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
kstenerud 7y ago
And yet it's been wildly successful in Germany...
- cyxxon 7y ago
  Indeed. As a German, I found it highly curious to suggest that car free town centers are a failed concept... on the contrary, I would not want to live in a city that does not have this (and I am not for randomly closing streets in cities or banning all cars or anything...)
godzillabrennus 7y ago
Market street is already filthy, crime ridden, and covered in homeless drug addict urine/feces. Removing vehicle traffic is something the city can do. Dealing with the real issues is something they cannot.
- Rapzid 7y ago
  Bike-lane-shedding? Oh the drugs and homeless? Uh.. Bike lanes! Bike lanes for you, bike lanes for you, and bike lanes for YOU! Bike lanes for everybody! EDIT: And paper straws!
- zucker42 7y ago
  Not my impression walking down market street, especially between the bay and 10th street.
- TomMarius 7y ago
  > Dealing with the real issues is something they cannot. Huh? Is helping homeless people not possible in San Francisco? In Prague we have a pretty good success with it
  - chrischen 7y ago
    It’s not just San Francisco’s homeless people, it’s all of America’s homeless people.
    - yostrovs 7y ago
      Homelessness is confined to only certain cities in the US, mostly those located on the West Coast. So please don't imply that the entire country has the same political points of view as the West does. Philosophies, when tried, have consequences. The homeless of West Coast are suffering through them.
      - chrischen 7y ago
        Seeing as how US cities cannot enforce borders, and literally other states shipped their homeless via buses to SF... the reason you’e being downvoted is because homeless people flock to the West coast because these are urban, wealthy areas with good taxpayer support for homeless services. We didn’t necessarily generate these homeless. They come here for the same reason why they wouldn’t congregate in the middle of a desert.
awongh 7y ago
even though I'm in favor of banning cars, I might actually agree with this. Market street is a terrible pedestrian street. It's too wide so it doesn't feel personal or charming. It's too windy, there are no trees or other features that might mitigate this, and so you will never see significant outdoor features like cafes and restaurants. Not even to speak of the homeless problem. I would love for the government really invest some money into making market street into an attractive public space, with new park space, some kind of promotion of the area/funding for small businesses etc., but I don't think this is it. Even with this change I'm not really sure I can envision what kind of space it would be. Maybe just extending the bland faceless non-pedestrian oriented old navy /westfield vibe from 4th & market?
TulliusCicero 7y ago
Plenty of major cities all over the world have city center areas that greatly restrict car traffic, and work just fine. I'm an American in Munich, seems to work great here.

doctorpangloss 7y ago

That deck is from 2008, I bet I could find you a lot of failing retail and restaurant businesses that year. Furthermore, Lincoln Road Mall in Miami, which it lists as struggling, is definitely thriving today. I feel like the whole thing is bunk?

robk 7y ago
Lincoln road has high end shops and an excellent location on the water and there's no sign of a bus depot anywhere visible
- spikels 7y ago
  Seems it’s all the tourists and the university campus that make Lincoln Road work. The key is lots of pedestrians that aren’t dependent on cars - tourists in hotels and students on campus are perfect. Unfortunately Market St doesn’t have much of either. You are correct that buses and light rail are a negative.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]

kstenerud 7y ago

And yet it's been wildly successful in Germany...

cyxxon 7y ago
Indeed. As a German, I found it highly curious to suggest that car free town centers are a failed concept... on the contrary, I would not want to live in a city that does not have this (and I am not for randomly closing streets in cities or banning all cars or anything...)

godzillabrennus 7y ago

Market street is already filthy, crime ridden, and covered in homeless drug addict urine/feces. Removing vehicle traffic is something the city can do. Dealing with the real issues is something they cannot.

Rapzid 7y ago
Bike-lane-shedding? Oh the drugs and homeless? Uh.. Bike lanes! Bike lanes for you, bike lanes for you, and bike lanes for YOU! Bike lanes for everybody! EDIT: And paper straws!
zucker42 7y ago
Not my impression walking down market street, especially between the bay and 10th street.
TomMarius 7y ago
> Dealing with the real issues is something they cannot. Huh? Is helping homeless people not possible in San Francisco? In Prague we have a pretty good success with it
- chrischen 7y ago
  It’s not just San Francisco’s homeless people, it’s all of America’s homeless people.
  - yostrovs 7y ago
    Homelessness is confined to only certain cities in the US, mostly those located on the West Coast. So please don't imply that the entire country has the same political points of view as the West does. Philosophies, when tried, have consequences. The homeless of West Coast are suffering through them.
    - chrischen 7y ago
      Seeing as how US cities cannot enforce borders, and literally other states shipped their homeless via buses to SF... the reason you’e being downvoted is because homeless people flock to the West coast because these are urban, wealthy areas with good taxpayer support for homeless services. We didn’t necessarily generate these homeless. They come here for the same reason why they wouldn’t congregate in the middle of a desert.

awongh 7y ago

even though I'm in favor of banning cars, I might actually agree with this. Market street is a terrible pedestrian street. It's too wide so it doesn't feel personal or charming. It's too windy, there are no trees or other features that might mitigate this, and so you will never see significant outdoor features like cafes and restaurants. Not even to speak of the homeless problem. I would love for the government really invest some money into making market street into an attractive public space, with new park space, some kind of promotion of the area/funding for small businesses etc., but I don't think this is it. Even with this change I'm not really sure I can envision what kind of space it would be. Maybe just extending the bland faceless non-pedestrian oriented old navy /westfield vibe from 4th & market?

TulliusCicero 7y ago

Plenty of major cities all over the world have city center areas that greatly restrict car traffic, and work just fine. I'm an American in Munich, seems to work great here.