3 ms·

It'll take a decade to build the full protected lane for bikes. But banning taxis would improve safety overnight.

by buss 7y ago

SECProto 7y ago
As someone who does just that, it should not take anywhere near a decade. From now, two or three years would suffice for a complete streets design + rebuild. Extras included (eg separating storm+sanitary sewers, or other infrastructure recapitalization) could add a year or two. If it takes them more than 4 years, construction delays inclusive, the issue lies elsewhere than the design and construction. Perhaps things like maintaining traffic flow, etc.
- Ar-Curunir 7y ago
  This is San Francisco; construction will always take forever
- cbhl 7y ago
  Has CEQA been fixed yet? The Van Ness bus lane project was approved by voters in 2003 after Proposition K, but the CEQA report was finished only in 2014 because one of the eighteen environmental measures that required a full CEQA review was "level of service" for automobiles (so any project that reduced car throughput "hurts the environment" and required a review). Construction is slated to finish in 2021, a full 18 years after the original plan. For more context: https://www.citylab.com/transportation/2014/07/transit-projects-are-about-to-get-much-much-easier-in-california/374049/ https://www.citylab.com/transportation/2014/07/transit-proje... https://www.sfcta.org/projects/van-ness-improvement-project https://www.sfcta.org/projects/van-ness-improvement-project
- onlyrealcuzzo 7y ago
  Can you explain briefly how this could possibly take 3 years? I mean, I don't know anything about street design, but it seems so straightforward adding a protected bike lane. They aren't widening the streets, right? How could it take 3 years?
  - thaumasiotes 7y ago
    > They aren't widening the streets, right? How could it take 3 years? There's no upper limit to how long you can take to do something. Lower limits, sure, but no upper ones.
  - SECProto 7y ago
    So if you're just adding some painted bike lanes, or maybe some curb-separated bike lanes at street level, it shouldn't take anywhere near that long. The situation I'm picturing where it could take a few years is if the bike lanes are raised up to the same level as the sidewalk. Which can take a long time because it means moving existing curbs, which means moving catchbasins (curbs direct water flow) and often light posts (should be near edge of road for accessibility purposes - maintaining clear walking path, having push buttons and audible signals at edge of street). Doing either or both of these things means stuff is getting moved around underground, and underground is a very busy place (sewer, water, natural gas, buried electrical, signal infrastructure, old foundations, ... And all these are at different depths, with different separation requirements, severally limiting what can go where). And add in a busy location like Market Street, and maintaining access all the time, and probably limiting working hours to minimize impact on residents/businesses. The time would add up fast.
- buss 7y ago
  I agree that it _shouldn't_ take that long. This project was first started in 2011. Construction won't start until some time in 2020 (optimistically). From https://www.sfexaminer.com/news/sf-transit-board-approves-car-free-market-street/ https://www.sfexaminer.com/news/sf-transit-board-approves-ca...: > Better Market Street will be implemented in three phases: Market from Fifth to Eighth streets is phase 1, Market from Fifth to Second streets is phase 2, and Market from Van Ness to Octavia Boulevard will comprise phase 3. > The second phase will also include the construction of a loop in the Financial District for the F-Market & Wharves historic streetcar... > Phase 1 is scheduled to stretch at least until 2022, according to the project’s website. The construction of the streetcar loop is expected in 2023, and future phases of the project are dependent on identifying funding So 1/3 of this project is projected to be finished by 2022. And the other two portions of market street don't even have funding or a timeline yet. We will be lucky if it's finished by 2026 (no delays, no recession puts funding in jeopardy, etc). By the time everything is done, it may be _20_ _years_ to build protected lanes. In the meantime, we have sharrows and intermix with taxis.
iknowstuff 7y ago
Did you not see how quickly it happened on Valencia? I mean as a temporary, instant measure they could mostly add paint and more of those plastic separators: https://laecovillage.files.wordpress.com/2011/05/market-st-1699.jpg https://laecovillage.files.wordpress.com/2011/05/market-st-1...

It'll take a decade to build the full protected lane for bikes. But banning taxis would improve safety overnight.

by buss 7y ago

It'll take a decade to build the full protected lane for bikes. But banning taxis would improve safety overnight.

As someone who does just that, it should not take anywhere near a decade. From now, two or three years would suffice for a complete streets design + rebuild. Extras included (eg separating storm+sanitary sewers, or other infrastructure recapitalization) could add a year or two. If it takes them more than 4 years, construction delays inclusive, the issue lies elsewhere than the design and construction. Perhaps things like maintaining traffic flow, etc.

Ar-Curunir 7y ago
This is San Francisco; construction will always take forever
cbhl 7y ago
Has CEQA been fixed yet? The Van Ness bus lane project was approved by voters in 2003 after Proposition K, but the CEQA report was finished only in 2014 because one of the eighteen environmental measures that required a full CEQA review was "level of service" for automobiles (so any project that reduced car throughput "hurts the environment" and required a review). Construction is slated to finish in 2021, a full 18 years after the original plan. For more context: https://www.citylab.com/transportation/2014/07/transit-projects-are-about-to-get-much-much-easier-in-california/374049/ https://www.citylab.com/transportation/2014/07/transit-proje... https://www.sfcta.org/projects/van-ness-improvement-project https://www.sfcta.org/projects/van-ness-improvement-project
onlyrealcuzzo 7y ago
Can you explain briefly how this could possibly take 3 years? I mean, I don't know anything about street design, but it seems so straightforward adding a protected bike lane. They aren't widening the streets, right? How could it take 3 years?
- thaumasiotes 7y ago
  > They aren't widening the streets, right? How could it take 3 years? There's no upper limit to how long you can take to do something. Lower limits, sure, but no upper ones.
- SECProto 7y ago
  So if you're just adding some painted bike lanes, or maybe some curb-separated bike lanes at street level, it shouldn't take anywhere near that long. The situation I'm picturing where it could take a few years is if the bike lanes are raised up to the same level as the sidewalk. Which can take a long time because it means moving existing curbs, which means moving catchbasins (curbs direct water flow) and often light posts (should be near edge of road for accessibility purposes - maintaining clear walking path, having push buttons and audible signals at edge of street). Doing either or both of these things means stuff is getting moved around underground, and underground is a very busy place (sewer, water, natural gas, buried electrical, signal infrastructure, old foundations, ... And all these are at different depths, with different separation requirements, severally limiting what can go where). And add in a busy location like Market Street, and maintaining access all the time, and probably limiting working hours to minimize impact on residents/businesses. The time would add up fast.
buss 7y ago
I agree that it _shouldn't_ take that long. This project was first started in 2011. Construction won't start until some time in 2020 (optimistically). From https://www.sfexaminer.com/news/sf-transit-board-approves-car-free-market-street/ https://www.sfexaminer.com/news/sf-transit-board-approves-ca...: > Better Market Street will be implemented in three phases: Market from Fifth to Eighth streets is phase 1, Market from Fifth to Second streets is phase 2, and Market from Van Ness to Octavia Boulevard will comprise phase 3. > The second phase will also include the construction of a loop in the Financial District for the F-Market & Wharves historic streetcar... > Phase 1 is scheduled to stretch at least until 2022, according to the project’s website. The construction of the streetcar loop is expected in 2023, and future phases of the project are dependent on identifying funding So 1/3 of this project is projected to be finished by 2022. And the other two portions of market street don't even have funding or a timeline yet. We will be lucky if it's finished by 2026 (no delays, no recession puts funding in jeopardy, etc). By the time everything is done, it may be _20_ _years_ to build protected lanes. In the meantime, we have sharrows and intermix with taxis.

iknowstuff 7y ago

Did you not see how quickly it happened on Valencia? I mean as a temporary, instant measure they could mostly add paint and more of those plastic separators: https://laecovillage.files.wordpress.com/2011/05/market-st-1699.jpg https://laecovillage.files.wordpress.com/2011/05/market-st-1...