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So is there no point in any privacy laws then, since your assumption is the US government will violate it? Laws give you a way to win a lawsuit, at the very lea

So is there no point in any privacy laws then, since your assumption is the US government will violate it? Laws give you a way to win a lawsuit, at the very least you have that.

roenxi 7y ago
A law that someone must do something that cannot be verified is more of a guideline. If the law is audited and compliance measured then that is meaningful, but the US government (particularly post-Snowden) is probably not capable of monitoring itself for compliance. If the government is not allowed to gather certain biometric data then that is relatively easy for the public to monitor. If the government collects and then promises it is going to delete the data there is a real chance that it won't get done.
sysbin 7y ago
Money is what wins a lawsuit. Otherwise you must have huge public backlash and that doesn't happen often.
StanislavPetrov 7y ago
>So is there no point in any privacy laws then, since your assumption is the US government will violate it? Its not an assumption, its a fact that has been proven time after time in every case for the last 15 years. >Laws give you a way to win a lawsuit, at the very least you have that. That's just not true. Not only can the government spy on you with impunity, the court has ruled that the government can kill you, without any due process whatsoever, and you are entirely powerless to challenge or even discover if you are on their "kill list" as long as they invoke the "state secret privilege". https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20190924/20182043065/dc-court-state-secrets-privilege-trumps-any-citizens-right-to-know-whether-not-their-own-govt-is-trying-to-kill-them.shtml https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20190924/20182043065/dc-co... The unfortunate fact is that our legal system has failed. Instead of enforcing the law and upholding The Constitution - its most core and precious mandates - our legal system has consistently deferred to government claims about the need for absolutely secrecy and legal impunity to do whatever they deem necessary.
- mistrial9 7y ago
  you are arguing that the system is not perfect, therefore it is failed. I argue this is false, because protections are applied in many cases not one, and time moves forward.
  - StanislavPetrov 7y ago
    No, I'm arguing the system has failed completely based on the abundance of evidence. Of all the hundreds of thousands of illegal, unconstitutional searches (that we know about) by agents of the government, never once has any government agent ever been criminally prosecuted for their willful violation of the law and the Constitution for their crimes. Further, the courts have ruled, on the rare occasions when challenges have been allowed to have been heard, that government claims of "state secrets" and "national security" supersede due process, legal and Constitutional rights. Our courts and our legal system have failed completely and absolutely in every conceivable way. This total failure has only worsened over time, and there is absolutely no indication that this trend is reversing.

So is there no point in any privacy laws then, since your assumption is the US government will violate it? Laws give you a way to win a lawsuit, at the very least you have that.

roenxi 7y ago

A law that someone must do something that cannot be verified is more of a guideline. If the law is audited and compliance measured then that is meaningful, but the US government (particularly post-Snowden) is probably not capable of monitoring itself for compliance. If the government is not allowed to gather certain biometric data then that is relatively easy for the public to monitor. If the government collects and then promises it is going to delete the data there is a real chance that it won't get done.

sysbin 7y ago

Money is what wins a lawsuit. Otherwise you must have huge public backlash and that doesn't happen often.

StanislavPetrov 7y ago

>So is there no point in any privacy laws then, since your assumption is the US government will violate it? Its not an assumption, its a fact that has been proven time after time in every case for the last 15 years. >Laws give you a way to win a lawsuit, at the very least you have that. That's just not true. Not only can the government spy on you with impunity, the court has ruled that the government can kill you, without any due process whatsoever, and you are entirely powerless to challenge or even discover if you are on their "kill list" as long as they invoke the "state secret privilege". https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20190924/20182043065/dc-court-state-secrets-privilege-trumps-any-citizens-right-to-know-whether-not-their-own-govt-is-trying-to-kill-them.shtml https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20190924/20182043065/dc-co... The unfortunate fact is that our legal system has failed. Instead of enforcing the law and upholding The Constitution - its most core and precious mandates - our legal system has consistently deferred to government claims about the need for absolutely secrecy and legal impunity to do whatever they deem necessary.

mistrial9 7y ago
you are arguing that the system is not perfect, therefore it is failed. I argue this is false, because protections are applied in many cases not one, and time moves forward.
- StanislavPetrov 7y ago
  No, I'm arguing the system has failed completely based on the abundance of evidence. Of all the hundreds of thousands of illegal, unconstitutional searches (that we know about) by agents of the government, never once has any government agent ever been criminally prosecuted for their willful violation of the law and the Constitution for their crimes. Further, the courts have ruled, on the rare occasions when challenges have been allowed to have been heard, that government claims of "state secrets" and "national security" supersede due process, legal and Constitutional rights. Our courts and our legal system have failed completely and absolutely in every conceivable way. This total failure has only worsened over time, and there is absolutely no indication that this trend is reversing.