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Refuting the results of scientific studies with anecdotal evidence is not going to win any arguments. Surely you must understand how these scientific studies wo

Refuting the results of scientific studies with anecdotal evidence is not going to win any arguments. Surely you must understand how these scientific studies work?

ThomPete 7y ago
Its not anectdotal and i would urge you to point to the scientific studies so we can debate their methodology and “scientific” base. I’m too old to just take these kind of studies as science without looking at the details. Now you dont have to take my examples for more than they are but they sure contradict the claims being made in this thread and onna state level.
- _coveredInBees 7y ago
  Someone else already replied with links so I'm not going to rehash here, but your parent post was the very definition of anecdote. You tried to refute entire studies and the current scientific consensus with a single example of how your kids do great academically despite waking up early for school. That is literally what an anecdote is.
  - ThomPete 7y ago
    Here is exactly what I wrote: , my two sons are top performers in their school and the school network is top 3% performing in NY state. I wasn't just talking about my two sons but about the school network in New York state. That's not anecdotal what so ever. Here are the actual results from Success Academy: https://www.aei.org/carpe-diem/more-on-the-phenomenal-eye-popping-success-of-success-academy-charter-schools-in-nyc/ https://www.aei.org/carpe-diem/more-on-the-phenomenal-eye-po... How is that anecdotal?
    - boomboomsubban 7y ago
      "This one school performs well and it has a start time before 8" is anecdotal evidence. Only one school's performance or start time is considered.
      - ThomPete 7y ago
        Not single school, school network! I don't know how more clear I can be.
        boomboomsubban 7y ago
        "This one school network..." doesn't stop it from being an anecdote.
        ThomPete 7y ago
        It does when it results are compared to the entire new york state and its consistently in the top.
        jameshart 7y ago
        What’s your control? Do other schools in or out of the top 3% have earlier or later start times? How do you account for confounds like socioeconomics and demographics? If you don’t, what you have is an anecdote, not evidence. Others are pointing you to studies that look at real data and apply statistical rigor. You are arguing that your knowledge of a single example outweighs that evidence. That is precisely what people mean when they accuse you of using ‘anecdata’.
        ThomPete 7y ago
        17.3% of schools in New York start later than 8.30, the majority starts between 8-8.30 SA starts at 7.45 yet they dominate the Top 30 out of a sample of 2400 schools. I can live with that as a significant sample size and control group ESPECIALLY since I never said that the earlier you are up the better but simply that it's not a problem if you get early enough to sleep. The study you refer to compares 2, TWO schools and doesn't come to any conclusion that contradicts mine in fact it support it. More sleep means better performance most of all. But sure keep on claiming I am the one who is making anecdotal claims.
- guiambros 7y ago
  Why We Sleep [1], by Matthew Walker, PhD. Page 92: "Adolescents face two other harmful challenges in their struggle to obtain sufficient sleep as their brains continue to develop. The first is a change in their circadian rhythm. The second is early school start times." Also: "... the circadian rhythm of a young child runs on an earlier schedule. Children therefore become sleepy earlier and wake up earlier than their adult parents. Adolescent teenagers, however, have a different circadian rhythm from their young siblings. During puberty, the timing of the suprachiasmatic nucleus is shifted progressively forward: a change that is common across all adolescents, irrespective of culture of geography." It goes on to explain why this is the case, and the impact on your sleep schedule. Also page 308-16 there's an entire chapter on Sleep and Education, and the problem of schools starting progressively early, mostly for the convenience of society at large, rather than a net benefit of the kids. The book has been largely discussed on HN before; definitely worth reading. [1] https://www.amazon.com/Why-We-Sleep-Unlocking-Dreams/dp/1501144316 https://www.amazon.com/Why-We-Sleep-Unlocking-Dreams/dp/1501...
  - aloukissas 7y ago
    100% this - I read the Why We Sleep book earlier this year and this quote immediately came to my head when I read this news.
  - yilugurlu 7y ago
    I just came here to see this citation :)
  - ThomPete 7y ago
    Nothing in that contradicts what i wrote, it supports it.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
pjkundert 7y ago
I love scientific studies, illustrating the standard distribution or exponential long-tail nature of whatever biological/ethnical/identity based feature they are studying. Then, I hope that everyone makes the obvious blunder of categorizing the target population according to the results of the study. Because it’s “scientific”, am-I-rite? Finally, I harvest the crackerjack-smart, hard-working people from the (now) under-appreciated group. My team wins; the scientism-ists get the lazy offspring of the wealthy elites protected by “science”. Everyone wins!

Refuting the results of scientific studies with anecdotal evidence is not going to win any arguments. Surely you must understand how these scientific studies work?

ThomPete 7y ago

Its not anectdotal and i would urge you to point to the scientific studies so we can debate their methodology and “scientific” base. I’m too old to just take these kind of studies as science without looking at the details. Now you dont have to take my examples for more than they are but they sure contradict the claims being made in this thread and onna state level.

_coveredInBees 7y ago
Someone else already replied with links so I'm not going to rehash here, but your parent post was the very definition of anecdote. You tried to refute entire studies and the current scientific consensus with a single example of how your kids do great academically despite waking up early for school. That is literally what an anecdote is.
- ThomPete 7y ago
  Here is exactly what I wrote: , my two sons are top performers in their school and the school network is top 3% performing in NY state. I wasn't just talking about my two sons but about the school network in New York state. That's not anecdotal what so ever. Here are the actual results from Success Academy: https://www.aei.org/carpe-diem/more-on-the-phenomenal-eye-popping-success-of-success-academy-charter-schools-in-nyc/ https://www.aei.org/carpe-diem/more-on-the-phenomenal-eye-po... How is that anecdotal?
  - boomboomsubban 7y ago
    "This one school performs well and it has a start time before 8" is anecdotal evidence. Only one school's performance or start time is considered.
    - ThomPete 7y ago
      Not single school, school network! I don't know how more clear I can be.
      - boomboomsubban 7y ago
        "This one school network..." doesn't stop it from being an anecdote.
        ThomPete 7y ago
        It does when it results are compared to the entire new york state and its consistently in the top.
        jameshart 7y ago
        What’s your control? Do other schools in or out of the top 3% have earlier or later start times? How do you account for confounds like socioeconomics and demographics? If you don’t, what you have is an anecdote, not evidence. Others are pointing you to studies that look at real data and apply statistical rigor. You are arguing that your knowledge of a single example outweighs that evidence. That is precisely what people mean when they accuse you of using ‘anecdata’.
        ThomPete 7y ago
        17.3% of schools in New York start later than 8.30, the majority starts between 8-8.30 SA starts at 7.45 yet they dominate the Top 30 out of a sample of 2400 schools. I can live with that as a significant sample size and control group ESPECIALLY since I never said that the earlier you are up the better but simply that it's not a problem if you get early enough to sleep. The study you refer to compares 2, TWO schools and doesn't come to any conclusion that contradicts mine in fact it support it. More sleep means better performance most of all. But sure keep on claiming I am the one who is making anecdotal claims.
guiambros 7y ago
Why We Sleep [1], by Matthew Walker, PhD. Page 92: "Adolescents face two other harmful challenges in their struggle to obtain sufficient sleep as their brains continue to develop. The first is a change in their circadian rhythm. The second is early school start times." Also: "... the circadian rhythm of a young child runs on an earlier schedule. Children therefore become sleepy earlier and wake up earlier than their adult parents. Adolescent teenagers, however, have a different circadian rhythm from their young siblings. During puberty, the timing of the suprachiasmatic nucleus is shifted progressively forward: a change that is common across all adolescents, irrespective of culture of geography." It goes on to explain why this is the case, and the impact on your sleep schedule. Also page 308-16 there's an entire chapter on Sleep and Education, and the problem of schools starting progressively early, mostly for the convenience of society at large, rather than a net benefit of the kids. The book has been largely discussed on HN before; definitely worth reading. [1] https://www.amazon.com/Why-We-Sleep-Unlocking-Dreams/dp/1501144316 https://www.amazon.com/Why-We-Sleep-Unlocking-Dreams/dp/1501...
- aloukissas 7y ago
  100% this - I read the Why We Sleep book earlier this year and this quote immediately came to my head when I read this news.
- yilugurlu 7y ago
  I just came here to see this citation :)
- ThomPete 7y ago
  Nothing in that contradicts what i wrote, it supports it.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]

pjkundert 7y ago

I love scientific studies, illustrating the standard distribution or exponential long-tail nature of whatever biological/ethnical/identity based feature they are studying. Then, I hope that everyone makes the obvious blunder of categorizing the target population according to the results of the study. Because it’s “scientific”, am-I-rite? Finally, I harvest the crackerjack-smart, hard-working people from the (now) under-appreciated group. My team wins; the scientism-ists get the lazy offspring of the wealthy elites protected by “science”. Everyone wins!